Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#481

Post by chroma » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

jkbjotnip wrote: post #475

dlp211 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

And what standard is that—not allowing leaders to discuss cases objectively in public in case they might be misconstrued?

I think it's worse than that. IIRC, he discussed it on a private mailing list and someone leaked his emails.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#482

Post by sam_lowry_ » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:54 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #207

noelsusman wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying we wouldn't have anyone left in power of they were held up to this standard seems more damning to our current power structure than the moral standard at play here

The underlying moral story of all this is: 1. If you are attacked by the media, you will lose in the court of public opinion (I expect we wouldn't know about this at all except for the egregiously misleading "news" headlines). 2. Never ever discuss toxic topics (particularly if you are either a little odd, or politically weak). 3. If you publically question anything about a witch hunt, you too will be branded as a wi…

> (Epstein -> Minsky -> Stallman -> anyone defending RMS

Next to a vicious billionaire, a famous intellectual and the most prolific hacker? Um...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#483

Post by chimprich » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:55 AM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #378

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

The wrong opinion? Stallman questions whether the victim, who he admits was coerced into sex, was actually sexually assaulted. This is an incredibly shameful take on the situation. If any politician or public figure said this statement in the past 70 years, they would have ended their career. There are no Internet vigilantes hunting down dissenters. There are people trying to downplay sexual assault. As the internet…

> If any politician or public figure said this statement in the past 70 years, they would have ended their career.

"I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. [...] Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#484

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

That's depressing news. As is the fact that your have to overcome a sense of hesitation when disagreeing with internet mob tribunals.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#485

Post by chroma » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #459

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? Because you like him. If he were somone you did not like you'd be "good riddance". How do you fell about James Damore?

> How do you fell about James Damore?

That was definitely a witch hunt. He worked hard to give advice that he thought would be useful for improving diversity at Google. Nothing he said was outside of the scientific consensus, yet he was demonized[1] and fired for it. The whole thing is absurd.

1. Check out some Googler's responses to his document (which, in case you forgot, was deliberately leaked without diagrams or citations): https://imgur.com/a/S48QN Several want him physically battered for his opinions.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#486

Post by akvadrako » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

Twitter is not the real world - what goes on there only really effects what happens if you let it. If you ignore it, nothing bad happens.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#487

Post by nabla9 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 11:02 AM UTC

LaGrange wrote: post #480

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

> RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". As someone actually autistic, he doesn't get to blame being a douchecanoe on being autistic. > His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. Then _learn_. Also, we're not talking about not getting social cues about when it's okay to start talking, we're talking his considered and repeated position on issues such as sexual a…

I'm sorry if I communicated badly. English is not my native language

I was trying to give explanation, not excuse.

I was trying to communicate understanding, not acceptance.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#488

Post by antisemiotic » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 11:05 AM UTC

Stallman's career of relentlessly pissing upwind is ended by a disagreement on the implications of the phrase "presented to". A weird time to be alive.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#489

Post by Jedd » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 11:11 AM UTC

LaGrange wrote: post #480

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

> RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". As someone actually autistic, he doesn't get to blame being a douchecanoe on being autistic. > His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. Then _learn_. Also, we're not talking about not getting social cues about when it's okay to start talking, we're talking his considered and repeated position on issues such as sexual a…

> As someone actually autistic, he doesn't get to blame being a douchecanoe on being autistic.

Was he a douchecanoe? Is that even a helpful label for you to apply to him? Was he claiming he behaved / behaves the way you think he does solely because he's borderline autistic, or are you extrapolating?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#490

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 11:12 AM UTC

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet.

I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain.

If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps.

> ...in what we can say without facing consequences.

What you say should have consequences. No one should censor you (what you say should be up to you), but you don't live in a vacuum. What you say has a real effect on others, and if that effect is bad, you should be held accountable.