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Google Is Eating Our Mail

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Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#481

Post by feanaro »

mcsb4 wrote: post #215
prlambert wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

> It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this I just happen to have set up an email server and encountered the same problems with Google as described in the article. I own the IP since quite some time, it is not on any black list, reverse DNS is set up etc. but Google rejects email as spam. And this even happens when the gmail account has added the sender in his address book and has send the first email to…

> Refusing it outright is a case for the European Commission which hopefully will slap you another few billions of fine onto the wrist until you remember to play nicely with the other kids.

This is a very interesting idea that I completely missed.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#482

Post by vbezhenar »

sandworm101 wrote: post #455
thaumasiotes wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

>> I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filtered at all. There are layers of filtering beyond what appears in your spam folder, layers that block obvious spam long before it gets anywhere near your account. If every email ever sent to your address wound up in your spam folder you'd beg for filtering.

I'm using my e-mail pretty much everywhere (me@vbezhenar.com you have it in clear text, every bot will crawl it now, not for the first time, though). I'm too lazy to setup spamassasin yet, so I'm getting a notification for every spam message I got. The only thing that I'm trying to do is to click "unsubscribe" even from obviously spam mails (may be it'll make more harm than good, not sure). So I'm getting around 20-30 spam e-mails per day. I don't think that it's THAT bad. I'm spending may be a minute every day to delete it. And I'm sure that with absolutely minimal spam filtering I would achieve almost perfect filtering.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#483

Post by FakeComments »

prewett wrote: post #462
FakeComments wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve made a career out of going “a bad business plan + computers is still a bad business plan”. It’s not just Google.

I'm curious how you make of career of not doing a bad business plan.

You get hired to be the subject matter expert on economic models, then you remind executives who consult with you that their plans don’t get better just by adding computers (or fancy math of any form).

Eventually, even when you get fired because they tired of you being a nag, you write down all the times your nagging was right, and someone else hires you to be the math nag, because corporations have accepted they need them — even if they’ll also eventually fire you for being right.

There’s easier ways to make money with the same skill set.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#484

Post by lnanek2 »

prlambert wrote: post #183
reaperducer wrote: post #8

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

> Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale)

That's not true at all. I've noticed when sending from Gmail to Gmail it always gets delivered and quickly. I've noticed with other email service people, even ones using big providers like Yahoo, it's really hit or miss if they can receive from me, send to me, and it takes a long time to show up in my email. So there's a really strong network effect to use Gmail because Gmail doesn't work well outside Gmail. So much so that I keep a bunch of address (personal/Gmail, work, school, my personal web site and email server) and try to pick the one that works best based on who I'm sending to.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#485

Post by dahart »

craftinator wrote: post #437
craftinator wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So will you fix OP's problem then, prlambert?

If you downvote, please reply and explain your position. I simply asked if this Gmail PM is going to fix the problem with Gmail in the comments about that problem. So who is upset with my comment and WHY.

Apologies for unsolicited advice, but since you’re newish...

Downvotes don’t mean anyone’s upset, there’s a large variety of reasons people downvote. Same is true of upvotes, there are lots of different reasons for them. Try not to take either personally.

Downvotes don’t require explanation, just like upvotes don’t require explanation. It’s a great idea to be curious and seek ways to avoid downvotes, always good to assume you might be wrong. Less so to demand you were right, even if you are. :)

Also be aware that HN guidelines suggest avoiding complaining about votes you get, https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Hope that helps, cheers!

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#486

Post by neilv »

If ProtonMail would standardize a client protocol that other MUAs implement (not their "bridge" kludge), I'd start encouraging people to move there.

I'm not interested in ProtonMail's encryption (and it's potentially a liability, attracting aggressive state action). I'm mainly interested in their apparent respect for the privacy of users' private communications. And also hoping that ProtonMail has a bit more reliable delivery than GMail.

In any case, rising competition lifts all performance boats, or something like that.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#487

Post by [deleted] »

Goronmon wrote: post #293
PaulHoule wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it astonishing how much people devalue software and information services. The same people who have to have a $1500 phone and seem to think nothing of dropping $150 a month on Verizon or AT&T won't spend $5 on any cloud service. This is why Google keeps winning and everyone else is losing, particularly the people who get the "free" services but don't have any say about those services. The real numbers might be…

You seem so unsure about your own point that you immediately downplay a users concerns about spending $250 a year by reducing that number to $5. Why the need to fabricate a theoretical number when someone provided you with a specific value? If I spend $300 dollars on a phone every 2-3 years and $40 for service a month, am I then permitted to raise concerns about spending hundreds of dollars a year for email accounts?

[deleted]

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#488

Post by sumosudo »

reaperducer wrote: post #241
prlambert wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

If we lose an open, healthy ecosystem with many providers, we'll destroy the base we stand on. Or you've grown large enough that the base no longer matters. we care deeply about having positive relationships with developers and all our users it definitely makes me sad to see articles like this There are going to be false positives, we will make mistakes we could do much better there. Most of this reads like it was wr…

Ooopsie, that's another oopsie. We'll fix it, now fuck off underling..

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#489

Post by feanaro »

Reading this thread made me realize the magnitude of this problem. It seems very sensible that small email server administrators should unite into a single effort in order to better publicize this issue, raise awareness and shame Google into compliance.

Google seems to be suffocating the internet bit by bit on all fronts and it needs to be stopped.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#490

Post by andrewprock »

dingus wrote: post #299
prlambert wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

Just checked my junk folder.

9 out of 10 threads marked as spam were false negatives.

That's a 90% failure rate.

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