Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair • Hacker News Board

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#481

Post by berbec » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #281

gurpreet- wrote: post #126

Personally, as an app developer, I think Spotify is taking the right stance here. I believe that Apple should take some cuts but not as high as 30%. I believe for some categories like microtransaction based apps Apple should take maybe 5%. Plus, I think that if Apple has a competing service, then it should waive the tax altogether. It's only fair. If the only function of the App Store (or Play Store) is to provide ho…

What is "should"? Who determines should, aside from what the law currently says? Maybe I'm uninformed, but it doesn't appear to me that access to an app store and the terms of such access (which by the way didn't even exist almost 10 years ago) is a public utility or good with an expectation of equal access or certain fair pricing. Then, under what right does anyone claim that Apple (or any ecosystem platform) has to…

I was about to argue with this and rage against Apple, but then I remembered a very similar situation everyone deals with and no one complains about: Supermarket Generics.

"How is it fair for Price Chopper to undercut Rice Crispies with a similar, cheaper product?" no on says this...

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#482

Post by sinnoh » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #395

volandovengo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a long time I've been confused about the rules of monopolies. Microsoft got into a lot of trouble when they bundled IE into Windows so much so that the US threatened heavily to break up the company. Fast forward a decade later and apple, google and amazon bundle a crazy amount of unrelated services into their platforms without the regulators raising an eyebrow...

At that time Microsoft completely dominated desktop operating systems to the extent that it was an effective monopoly. It them attempted to leverage that position to try and squash other browser makers. I agree that Apple is trying to squash Spotify, but I don't believe it doesn't have an effective monopoly on mobile phones.

no one is arguing it has a monopoly on mobile phones, the argument is and has always been that they have a monopoly on the ios software ecosystem they've built.

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#483

Post by jordache » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

Apple needs to be broken up. Warren go it right.

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#484

Post by unstatusthequo » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

supermatt wrote: post #71

Just as Microsoft were stopped from shipping a browser with their OS, vendors should be prevented from shipping an App Store with their OS. You cant move to another platform without losing access to all your "purchases" - there is no free market. They have monopolies within ecosystems they created. They should be FORCED to have an open platform, with users able to access multiple 3rd party storefronts on multiple pla…

Forced? That doesn't sound like freedom. Forced to enable your competitors to compete with you on your own platform? Forced to develop a platform upon which competitors can reduce your payoff on that investment?

Look at Google Play store. Much more "open," and a shitload of malware, scams, and shit software. Without curation of any kind, you end up with shit. It's the Tragedy of the Commons applied to apps. Build it, and they will ruin.

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#485

Post by coldacid » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #413

coldacid wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer, tell that to the users. Speaking of which, even just developing for iOS is a painful chore compared to Android. Unfortunately when the client and the users want iPhones, folks like us have to develop for them. In this world, it's fuck or walk.

If you run a business and then complain about where your customers prefer to buy your products... you're literally complaining about the fact that you have paying customers. You're free to not support the people who keep you in business but they're then also free to not keep you in business anymore. You might be in the wrong business.

I believe you are missing the point to my response.

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#486

Post by gimmeThaBeet » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

ppeetteerr wrote: post #165

I agree that Spotify is taking the right stance. In their position, working on whatever team is responsible for fighting Apple, I would also do anything in my power to fight. Having said this, Apple can do as they please. They control the hardware, the OS, the App Store, and the user accounts. The same was true of Twitter who effectively squeezed access to their API until one or two desktop clients remained. The only…

Yeah, this does seem like a thorny issue. It feels like a shopping mall; you have this big space with a lot of people, a lot of things going on. If you didn't know what it was you could easily mistake it for a public space, but it most certainly is not.

But then you have the complication in the analogy that afaik, the landlord doesn't usually operate stores?

Similarly, at a local level, it looks pretty bad, Apple has advantages in its environment that allows it to operate in sort of unassailable ways. But indeed, if you zoom out, the big driver Apple has is millions and millions of iPhone users.

Apple has users that want its products, spotify wants market access to those users, the link imo is "do the users want spotify more than apple?". And the answer I would think is no, but then that brings up I think the reasonable issue that there's a larger barrier in switching devices than there is in switching apps. Sorry for the ramble, the whole thing seems like a mess.

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#487

Post by intellix » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

When I'm on Spotify on macOS and press play on my keyboard, it always opens up iTunes instead. Am sick of this second party support for everything especially when the Apple versions are so dire

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#488

Post by oarsinsync » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #438

jonhohle wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They bundled _while_ having a monopoly. They could have bundled or they could have had a monopoly, but doing both is where it crosses the anti-trust line since your customers are effectively captive. What does Apple have a monopoly on? What does Amazon have a monopoly on? Google arguably has a monopoly on search which could put them in an unfavorable position should an antitrust case be brought against them (maybe wh…

Google doesn't have a monopoly on search. Having a popular or high-quality product is not the same as having no competition. You can run an ecommerce business online entirely through instagram if you wanted to. Amazon theoretically is abusing it's market power by being selective about which products it sells in it's stores. When they removed competing AppleTV/Chromecast products from their own and seller lines, to pr…

Google search has a 92% market share[0]

Microsoft desktop market share in 2009 was still over 90%[1]

Google search has no significant competition, much like Microsoft Windows had no significant competition.

[0] http://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share

[1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/...

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#489

Post by number_six » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #420

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how would you know Spotify Premium even exists if Spotify is prohibited by Apple to make any mention of it?

IIRC the iOS app promotes the desktop app, which can promote the premium plan. I have to imagine a fair number of Google searches for "spotify remove ads", too, which can lead to an upgrade.

right, but their own app doesn't have the same restrictions. They can advertise the premium offering within the iOS app, they don;t need users to go further down a rabbit hole to find the premium offering.

I guess the crutch of Spotify's argument is that 30% is too high to charge while having their own competing app that isn't required to pay the same fees. Effectively using their unilateral control of the App Store and IAP to squeeze a third party competitor

Re: Spotify to Apple: Time to Play Fair

#490

Post by sinnoh » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

Architect0126 wrote: post #264

shams93 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a monopoly over their own app store. It's not like Spotify can just choose to distribute their iOS app directly or through a 3rd party app store

Isn't that like saying a store has a monopoly over their shelves?

when the store also controls the ordinance it lives in and makes shoppers approve several big red "THIS STORE IS UNSAFE" banners if they even think of shopping anywhere else, then yes, that store having a monopoly over its shelves is an issue.