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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#481

Post by crowdpleaser »

almost_usual wrote: post #460
crowdpleaser wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least people can overcome abuse and thrive off of it. I don't know a single person who had an extremely cushy childhood who is 'on fire' for anything or striving for greatness. You need adversity to be great. Not all adversity is abuse. The American dream is about overcoming and flourishing to the limits of your will power, taxing people who have succeeded to provide succor to people who don't care about themselve…

>I don't know a single person who had an extremely cushy childhood who is 'on fire' for anything or striving for greatness. You could argue our current president had a pretty cushy childhood. Not sure if he's 'on fire' or 'striving for greatness' though. Social mobility is heavily determined by a combination of race, IQ, gender, social-class, where you were born, and physical / mental health. All of that is dictated…

>You could argue our current president had a pretty cushy childhood.

I think this kind of proves my point, people with cushy childhoods seem to turn out not great. I'd imagine he'd be a more effective leader if he spent more time overcoming adversity.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#482

Post by koyote »

systemtest wrote: post #252
habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

This is exactly what is happening right now. I'm a software developer for the Dutch government and I pay about €40.000 per year in income tax. My neighbor has the same lifestyle as me. Same apartment, type of clothing, food and sports. And she even drives a car, I don't. Yet I am gone for work for about 50 hours per week and she lives on the income tax I pay. She doesn't even try to have a job because she is happy wi…

Your neighbour lives the same lifestyle as you on a mere 1k euro a month?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#483

Post by AndrewKemendo »

moorhosj wrote: post #480
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My contention is that median variability of cultural attributes between those cities is signifcantly less than median variability of cultural attributes in US cities.

That is a fair observation. To clarify, you think that makes it harder to find political solutions because people don't feel they are "in it together"?

Exactly. The easier it is to find differences in your group and another group under the same organization, especially with a weak overarching culture, the less likely those groups will coordinate politically and economically.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#484

Post by throwawayjava »

zimablue wrote: post #167
throwawayjava wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a ridiculously false dichotomy. Plenty of folks in the midwest/south/appalachia/dakotas/etc. don't give a shit about their communities, and plenty of people in dense coastal cities care deeply about the people around them. And vice versa (as you noted). Weekend (or, anyways, short) vacations to Paris are a thing. On the other hand, they are also super cheap historically speaking ( Paris, stay in a hostel and…

You're using false dichotomy in a kind of odd way, it normally means that you have to choose between one of two positions or arguments, not that someone has stereotyped two groups. I don't think anyone is saying that these classifications are perfect, but are you saying that they're not true even on average?

The dichotomy is poor="interior"=values community vs. rich=coast=does not value community.

> are you saying that they're not true even on average?

Yes, absolutely.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#485

Post by habosa »

fogetti wrote: post #244
habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

There are three problems with your statement. First that you assume that we don't have givers and takers right now. Second that you imply that takers are the poor. Third is that you assume there is no resentment at the moment.

To be clear I was not saying the characterization of the poor as "takers" is fair, I was just saying that's how they will be labeled by society a large.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#486

Post by habosa »

koheripbal wrote: post #261
habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

> need to find a way ... to give them purpose The idea that the government should be giving people purpose is the beginning of a dystopian nightmare. >> WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE? <<

I did not say it had to be the government. We as a society need to define what a life not centered around work really looks like and how it fits in.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#487

Post by systemtest »

koyote wrote: post #482
systemtest wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what is happening right now. I'm a software developer for the Dutch government and I pay about €40.000 per year in income tax. My neighbor has the same lifestyle as me. Same apartment, type of clothing, food and sports. And she even drives a car, I don't. Yet I am gone for work for about 50 hours per week and she lives on the income tax I pay. She doesn't even try to have a job because she is happy wi…

Your neighbour lives the same lifestyle as you on a mere 1k euro a month?

New housing projects are mandated to have 35% social housing. So our building of 12 apartments have 4 social housing ones with I believe cost €600 per month in rent. Minus around €200 in rent subsidy for people with low income so you pay around €400.

I pay 2 percent interest of €300.000 so about €1000 per month including paying off the mortgage in 30 years and around €150 in building maintenance cost.

Also yearly healthcare for me is €1000 for insurance plus €2900 in Zwv tax. For her it’s €1000 for insurance only and there is a €900 healthcare subsidy for low income.

So that why we have the same lifestyle even though are income is very different. We call it “nivileren”, which I believe translates to income leveling.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#488

Post by tkxxx7 »

moreira wrote: post #418
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those stats count an immigrant from any neighboring Western European country as foreign born. That makes them highly misleading compared to the US. In the US, a person from a different state does not count as an immigrant.

Of course not, but a state is not a country. Germany has 16 states, for example, and the statistics don't count people from different states as immigrants. However, a person from a neighbouring country (e.g. Mexico) would count as an immigrant in the US. Just because states are massive in the US doesn't make them equivalent to different countries in Europe, which all have their own language, ethnic background, and cu…

I think GP's point is more that there are many more surrounding countries from which immigration is easier, than in the U.S.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#489

Post by dmode »

ameister14 wrote: post #383
dmode wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per capita basis, I believe EU countries take on more immigrants than America

I thought that was interesting, so I just checked - the EU as a whole has about 52.5 million people living in countries they were not born in (including other EU countries) and a total population of about 512 million. So that's about 10%. The US has about 44.5 million foreign born in it, with a total population of about 328 million. So that's about 13.5%. So no, the EU does not have more immigrants than the US per ca…

There is also a sliding scale in EU. Western European countries like Germany, France, Sweden, Netherlands, take in far more immigrants than Poland, Hungary etc. The point that triggered this whole thread was immigration is the reason America doesn't have the same quality of life as EU. Which is clearly not true, considering Germany and NL takes in very high % of immigrants. Even with your 13 vs 10% is negligible for any meaningful policy differences. US is different not because of immigration, but due to its political bent.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#490

Post by cableshaft »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #413
cableshaft wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectuals can be poor and/or make bad choices too. I know plenty of smart people who are struggling to make ends meet (me included, to a certain extent, and I make 2-3x more than a lot of these people). But you're right that there is a culture of anti-intellectualism amongst a certain segment of poor people.

But that means that most kids who grow up in that culture are going to absorb those same influences. It doesn't seem fair to then blame them for the society they came from.

I'm definitely not blaming them for anything, if anything that's the parent comment. I would love to find a way to encourage people in those environments. I think some things have been successful at improving that. Sesame Street, as one example (at least according to some documentaries I've watched).

I will say, though, that I went to an average public school and did my best not to draw too much attention to myself because I was one of the smarter kids and would sometimes be picked on. Not usually too bad, but enough that I went through periods of depression during my high school years.

It probably stunted my trajectory (along with some other choices I made) in my career, but I'm doing well enough. It helps that I was naturally interested in computers, which ended up being a route to well-paying jobs, but if I was naturally interested in art more (and I sure doodled my fair share and have released games with art that I've made in the past), I might be one of those poor people that people such as the parent assume to be anti-intellectual today.

Hell, I know a super talented artist and animator that ended up taking a programmer boot camp years later in order to get a better paying job, and it just makes me feel sad, because he deserves to be paid well for following his passion for being as talented as he is, but this world is not set up for that, unfortunately.

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