Bullshit Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#481

Post by da02 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

AlexanderNull wrote: post #431

TeMPOraL wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally not against checklists, especially in aviation. It's just something is rubbing me with the recipe for business involving such degree of micromanagement. > Another example: when cooking a new dish, if you start with a recipe you'll probably get up to speed faster than just winging it. This doesn't mean there's no creativity. Fair, but a recipe is about as far from a checklist as you can get while still retaini…

Former chef here, the variance in balances of different chemical constituents can be so massive between two pieces of fruit picked from the same tree that precise recipes would be useless without requiring each reader to have access to a mass spectrometer (and any clue as to what its readout means). This is largely where the "art" in culinary arts comes in. While you could teach someone to read a mass spectrometer to…

Why did you stop being a chef? Too much stress from crazy restaurant owners?

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#482

Post by bena » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

ci5er wrote: post #473

bena wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While 51% can be defined as "most", "most" doesn't necessarily mean "at least 51%". I was being rather vagueish, because requiring 100% acceptance is likely to be impossible. For instance, I really doubt that the white supremacist movement is going to find any situation where members of other ethnicities get as much or more than any of their members to be "equitable" according to their values. But just because they w…

Well, yeah: not having the agents of the monopoly on preemptive violence that the state has reserved to itself getting too trigger-happy is something that I think all us plebes can agree upon. When you are talking about normalizing starting conditions (up-thread), you are talking about ad-hoc/post-hoc redistribution of assets. Presumably assets that have been earned at an earlier time based on providing customers pro…

I mean, we could form that group anyway. Viva la revolution and all that.

And it's good that you're uncomfortable with it. It's an uncomfortable thing.

I am not talking about the redistribution of wealth per se. I'm talking about the footwork needed to get to the place where we can even begin talking about it. I'm acknowledging that it's difficult. That it needs some hard answers to wicked problems. Something a lot of people ignore in their "eat the rich" rhetoric.

And I'm not really advocating for any sort of change. I'm just saying if you want this, you need that first. If you want "a fair and rational distribution of wealth", you are first going to have to explain what that means to you, why it is fair, why it is rational, why it even needs to be done, and do it in a way that convinces me.

And to the point of fortune of birth, we're all affected by the circumstances of our birth. We're not all created equal in all aspects. Is that fair? Don't know, but it is how the world is. Some people are born taller, prettier, smarter, richer. When you get down to it, there is a large degree of our existence we didn't "earn" by the metric we judge inherited wealth.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#483

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

ksdale wrote: post #464

CalRobert wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Or message me? I suspect we have similar mindsets.

Mostly I just think that there are certain places where it's socially acceptable to give up all your time, like to a career. But if you're a smart young person, you're considered to be giving up your future (at least by your peers) if you have kids too young, and I think whether that's true depends a ton on the person in question. I'm of the perspective that a lot of people trade their 20s for a paycheck and weekends…

Thanks for the detailed response! My wife and I are contemplating some large life changes and also feel like the way we've set up society is not actually the best way to live. How much of your work exists to make your boss' boss' boss, and your landlord, wealthier? Why can't I work half as much for half as much money? I never want to buy anything but the odd vacation anyway.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#484

Post by sonnyblarney » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

Chathamization wrote: post #410

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it would be. I think if everyone stopped advertising unit sales would crash. Coke vs Pepsi is much less of a thing than the constant reinforcement that you would really, really enjoy one or the other right now. The constant reinforcement drives absolute sales, not just relative market share. I think the problem is more that a lot of heavily advertised products are incredibly harmful to personal and envi…

> It's not just about bullshit jobs but about bullshit consumption, and the curious moral frameworks that support it. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Many jobs seem to have a net negative value for society - soda, highly processed food, credit cards, car dealerships, (most) sales people, etc. We'd probably be better of as a society paying these people to do nothing than to do what they do now; we'd be eve…

"Many jobs seem to have a net negative value for society - soda, highly processed food, credit cards, car dealerships, (most) sales people, etc."

Rubbish.

Soda taste great, I love it. Don't tell me what is 'good or bad for me' - I can figure that out.

'Processed Foods' feed the world. They're not fundamentally unhealthy, can can absolutely be part of a decent diet.

Credit Cards - are an amazing financial innovation. Consumer credit is a really big deal that helps grease the wheels. Wherever there is no good consumer credit system - the economy is crap.

Car Dealerships and Salespeople - they definitely serve a function and it's why they are among the highest paid. Most people still like to test cars. The car industry relies on the model of dealerships and Tesla riding without is just like a new airline entrant just running only the profitable routes, and not carrying the longer tail ones. Also society has changed a little bit so admittedly the model could adapt.

All of those thinks you mentioned could be improved, and can be risky, but without them we'd be much worse off.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#485

Post by wott » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #190

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some times in history, folks worked more. In other times, less. Some folks still work a lot , even though they'd rather just work 35-40 hours a week. Sometimes folks had more holidays and vacation time in the past as well. Not everywhere has a culture of paid vacation time (or medical leave at all). Sure, there are interesting jobs, but only a small portion of folks have those sorts of jobs. Lots of folks work in…

I am not glossing over things. Nobody would want to live in the world like 100 years ago or even way before in time. We are just acting as spoiled brats.

> Nobody would want to live in the world like 100 years ago

I for one would definitely want it.

That's my favourite period of time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_%C3%89poque and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann%C3%A9es_folles

Very active, very interesting times: lots of scientific breakthrough, development of recent theories, lots of experimentations, while a great part of science is still, and for the last time in history, rather accessible. Travel to the whole world is possible, if you can afford it, while exploration is still possible and a few discoveries are to be made.

Railway transportation everywhere in the most remote places, like mine. 3 times as many people and 10 times as many shops as now in such places. Not everyone packed in gigantic conurbations with abandoned places elsewhere.

Education, hygiene, medicine already pretty developed (not as much as now, and not as well spread, but much closer to now than to the middle ages).

Technical knowledge and devices available (or very soon to be) to ease hardest works.

Great times if you were wealthy. Shitty times if you were a miner, or one of many factory workers, or a peasant in the wrong place. Quite okay times otherwise.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#486

Post by wott » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

gleech wrote: post #447

mumin-abu-jamal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food" We actually have less free time compared to hunter-gatherers. http://rewild.info/in-depth/leisure.html

This "original affluent society" hypothesis is much-promoted but much of it just isn't true. Lee's numbers explicitly counted only the initial foraging of the mongongo nuts, i.e. none of the food processing, firewood gathering or tool maintenance. After adjusting for these, the average !Kung work week is at least 50 hours and probably more. See: http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-rev...

I don't understand the base of this debunk. Nowadays, food 'collecting', food processing, DIY (taking care of tools) are not counted into working time but come extra and are taken from 'free' time. And they amount to 1, perhaps 2, working day equivalent per week.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#487

Post by collyw » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #197

collyw wrote: post #169

I did something a few months ago and pulled something in my back. Went to the doctor when the pain hadn't gone after a few days and it was exactly as described. He made me do a few movements until i triggered it, then told me i had lumbago, take some painkillers. I got home and googled lumbago, which basically told me I had back pain. (As a side note I had some kratom, which worked wonderfully for this, better than t…

My understanding of the kratom situation is that the worst danger is how it's all too easy for it to become habitual. I absolutely do not think it ought to be banned (nor any psychoactive plant for that matter), but interested parties should be forewarned. Many advocates may only use it occasionally and/or in consistently low doses, but there are plenty of accounts out there of users ramping up dosage and then having…

Agreed, I subscribe to some kratom subreddits and some people do seem a bit irresponsible with their use. And after two or three weeks of daily use I could see it getting addictive. Though it wasn't hard to cut back on at all, but I wasn't using particularly high amounts.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#488

Post by ci5er » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #482

ci5er wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah: not having the agents of the monopoly on preemptive violence that the state has reserved to itself getting too trigger-happy is something that I think all us plebes can agree upon. When you are talking about normalizing starting conditions (up-thread), you are talking about ad-hoc/post-hoc redistribution of assets. Presumably assets that have been earned at an earlier time based on providing customers pro…

I mean, we could form that group anyway. Viva la revolution and all that. And it's good that you're uncomfortable with it. It's an uncomfortable thing. I am not talking about the redistribution of wealth per se. I'm talking about the footwork needed to get to the place where we can even begin talking about it. I'm acknowledging that it's difficult. That it needs some hard answers to wicked problems. Something a lot o…

I'm vaguely comforted by the fact that redistributionists haven't come up with the idea that 80% of them are going to vote to chop 2" off me...

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#489

Post by spurgu » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #281

normalhuman wrote: post #65

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

Let's break it down to something simple: I have $3, you have $1. Is it fair that I give you $1 so we both have $2? Is that rational? Now let's say that you work 3 hours a day and I work 1 hour. Now what's fair? You're working three times longer than me, but I had three times as much money to start with. Would fair actually be if I gave you $2 instead? That way our cash is on par with our hourly work. Does that seem r…

What about actually putting tax money to good use by offering free health care and education like Scandinavian countries?

Would be a good start.

From there the concept could easily be expanded. Reward those who work hard at specific things but let the rest of the population enjoy the benefits as well. Give them (free or cheap) access to your widgets. And ensure that you don't end up owning a monopoly taking most of everyone's money and giving nothing back.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#490

Post by arbitrary_name » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #106

"why would profit-focused companies employ a bunch of people who by their own admission aren’t doing anything valuable". The short answer: they might not be doing anything valuable, but that doesn't mean they aren't valuable. I'm not a sociologist, so this is 'anecdotal', but I have consulted in and worked with a large number of companies during my professional 'career. First key insight I gained is that [b]the large…

This is the comment i came here for. SlateStars previous 'meditations on moloch' considered the idea of complex capitalist systems, and a relentless trend towards efficiency and Survival of participants within the system that eventually snuffs out art, freedom, and results in dire consequences for both the participants and the wider environment.

This interpretation is similar to the one put forward here by Graeber, and as you point out, similarly overestimates the effectiveness of the feedback mechanisms that drive 'fit' or 'fitness' and especially overestimates the willingness or incentive of participants, including corporations as well as workers, to adapt beyond a point where survival, at least for a time, is achieved.

I entirely agree that bullshit jobs exist, and in significant number as a result of a number of factors, but i often suspect that a 'hypercapitalist' system, with greater resource allocation efficiency and price or other signalling, would just be a miserable gig-driven dystopia.

At least with a bullshit job you can condition yourself to relax and enjoy the ride...