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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#481

Post by hmart »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

This create a case for pay for software believing a guarantee is granted just for paying

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#482

Post by pasabagi »

buserror wrote: post #433
klagermkii wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the subject of Linus, I wonder if he feels the same way about kernel discussions or if he is less at risk of this kind of burnout? Does being more empathetic when dealing with contributors and their suggestions extract a greater price on one's emotional state, compared to the more brash approach Linus has?

You nail it, I think. Being nice to contributors leads to bullying. Contributors assume, then feel entitled, and it gets harder and harder to say 'no' -- and it's probably very taxing. Linus shoots first, that keeps the bullying down -- of course everyone else thinks he is the bully, however he's just protecting himself. I've spent many years victim of bullying, and I know that the only way to beat a bully is to out-…

I think Linus's main point is that if he seems happy about something he's actually uncomfortable with, developers can sink a lot of work into something he ultimately doesn't like and doesn't want in the kernel. So the aggressive approach is to stave off that outcome, which is fair. I suspect he also enjoys it - which is also fair enough.

A lot of people actively enjoy and seek conflict.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#483

Post by orf »

sbjs wrote: post #252
jstimpfle wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having a problem in the first place is preferable to fighting it with tools. == vs = is a classic mistake that I'm sure every C programmer has wasted some time on. (I'm just undecided if I prefer dealing with this very problem occasionally, or choosing either of the verbosity of := assignments or the non-orthogonality of = assignment statements plus := assignment expressions.)

A programming language and the tools you use with it are tightly integrated: you're never using a language, you're always using a language via a tool. And if all C compilers you might use have warnings enabled for this buggy expression, then there's no problem.

No, your using a language, and if you know the language enough you begin using a tool

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#484

Post by brettcannon »

symmitchry wrote: post #20
bla2 wrote: post #5

> I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(

I'm a little confused though, by his feelings here. Why did he feel the need to "fight so hard for a PEP" if it was so controversial, and everyone was outraged? I do understand people's points about "the age of outrage" and "internet 2018" but still: the PEP wasn't generally accepted as being a fantastic improvement, so why did he feel the need to fight so hard for it?

He fought for it because he thought it was the right call. The role of a BDFL is to make those kinds of calls for the benefit of the language and community. It's really tough to fight the "tyranny of the majority" and go with what you think is right versus what everyone is screaming and yelling at you about.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#485

Post by Havoc »

sametmax wrote: post #84

As a personnal note, you could feel that guido was already in this mood for a while from the tone of the last year tickets and mails. It's amazing he managed to not explode at somebody. I know i would have if our roles had been reversed in some exchanges we had. Good writers, comedians or directors know when to quit at the top their carreer. I think he is quitting before the situation was too taxing and that is wise…

>It's amazing he managed to not explode at somebody.

Like a certain other BDFL occasionally does?

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#486

Post by riazrizvi »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

I get the point. However I also really enjoy it when a fellow developer makes the time to get their point across in a friendly, compassionate tone. I see that rants tend to be the way we phrase our complaints, perhaps because most of us feel rushed and we kid ourselves we are discussing purely technical matters? I need to keep reminding myself that there is an underlying/social purpose to my work.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#487

Post by sneakermoney »

sevensor wrote: post #385
bluecalm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when he is dealing with arguments as silly as "but we will confuse = with ==) it's not a surprise he is tired and had enough. I just wish he had pushed through C style assignment before retiring. New syntax is ugly and introduces a new operator which basically does the same thing. When I've seen this PEP for the first time I thought he lost his touch after so many fantastic design decisions throughout the years…

My reaction was the opposite -- I didn't know about PEP572, read it immediately after this retirement announcement. My response was, "where has this feature been all these years?" I'm delighted by the addition -- it removes a lot of "loop and a half" ugliness without adding do loops, it simplifies list comprehensions, it lets you remove opportunities to make mistakes, and it doesn't let you put a single-equals assign…

Same here, I often find myself writing a loop-and-a-half and will on occasion repeat expressions to get around extra lines (if I cared about performance, I wouldn't be writing it in Python).

I feel like a lot of the resistance is from people who think this is somehow bad style, because it's associated with a source of bugs in other languages. The same kind of people will argue endlessly against having 'goto' in a language, even when it can clearly make for cleaner code (eat it, Dijkstra!) in some cases.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#488

Post by Keyframe »

nikofeyn wrote: post #476
Keyframe wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though I am hardwired to C and 'thinking like a machine would/prefers', python was probably the first and only language I didn't feel like it was a programming language at all. Always when I write something in it, it's always 'huh, and that's it? I'm... done?'. Sure, it's equal part due to language and 'batteries', but neither would happen without GvR and awesome community that built around his project and him.…

how is python like lisp?

The future we were promised when we bought into what lisp would/could be, with all the practicality we see now in python. Norvig wrote about it more here: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html It was from that article when I gave python a serious try and it stuck with me as a go to language for all the small things one does often, but also exploratory programming as well (with iPython/jupyter).

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#489

Post by Gatsky »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

It is just selection bias. People that start and maintain OSS are on average more helpful and nice than people that don’t, hence the interaction.

A similar effect exists in relationships. If you are ‘nice’ then your potential partners include both other nice people and horrible people, because generally a horrible person will not tolerate another horrible person. Hence, you see nice people in relationships with horrible people more often than one would hope.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#490

Post by setgree »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

One person who understands and writes extremely well about this dynamic is Eliezer Yudkowsky. From the incomparable Harry potter and the Methods of Rationality: [0]

""I was going to be a hero, once," said Professor Quirrell, still looking upward. "Can you believe that, Miss Granger?"

"No."

"Thank you again, Miss Granger. It is true nonetheless... I was not naive, Miss Granger, I did not expect the power-holders to align themselves with me so quickly - not without something in it for themselves. But their power, too, was threatened; and so I was shocked how they seemed content to step back, and leave to that man all burdens of responsibility. They sneered at his performance, remarking among themselves how they would do better in his place, though they did not condescend to step forward...Perhaps, by taking on himself the curse of action, that man removed it from all others?...

"So -" Hermione's voice sounded strange in the night. "You left your friends behind where they'd be safe, and tried to attack the Dark Wizard all by yourself?"

"Why, no," said Professor Quirrell. "I stopped trying to be a hero, and went off to do something else I found more pleasant.""

This might be hard to grok without reading the preceding 83 chapters but it is the first thing that came to mind when I see how people treat open source contributors.

[0] http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/84

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