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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#481

Post by joshe »

swyx wrote: post #212
joshe wrote: post #138

This is such a great area to work on. The equity side is pretty rough. Founders are very sensitive about disclosing important information about company performance. They are sensitive about disclosing the cap table. Some will share info with investors that they don't share with employees. And they are sometimes trying to pitch optimistically and leaving out items that don't fit the narrative. So you end up with a ver…

> $800 million dollar startups die all the time is this the case? i actually don't know that it is.

Oh yes.

Jawbone $2.7 billion valuation -> 0

Beepi $560 million -> 0

Better Place $2.5 billion -> 0

Quixey $600 million -> 0

YikYak $400 million -> $3 million

Fab.com $1.5 billion -> $15 million

Rdio $500 million -> $75 million

Here's 133 of them, most pretty big: https://www.cbinsights.com/research/biggest-startup-failures...

Also got some details from: http://www.businessinsider.com/startups-that-raised-148-bill...

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#483

Post by IggleSniggle »

briandear wrote: post #340
dunpeal wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Simply untrue. Many early startup employees work intense 12-14 hour days. Are you saying founders work 1,200-1,400 hour days? Early startup employees also risk about the same as founders. Maybe a little less, financially. > Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant fundin…

> Many early startup employees work intense 12-14 hour days. Are you saying founders work 1,200-1,400 hour days Hours and days don’t capture the value. I have risked my house, every minute of spare time, I have put Heroku bills on my personal credit card, paid contractors out of my pocket and had to create something out of nothing within a difficult market vertical. Comparing that to a “long day at the office” doesn’…

Just to bring some perspective...when I was starting out, I was a teacher. I put in 12-16 hour days, got paid the inflation adjusted equivalent of 23k/yr, and put school supplies on my CC while facing the significant opportunity cost of spending my most energetic years empowering others.

I finally burned out and “retired” to 10x the salary at half the time and energy cost.

My point is that people will do things that are not in their financial interests because they are believers. Early employees are believers. I think you are underestimating the amount that early employees are putting on the line, including things like out of pocket costs for services for those businesses. People ARE doing it wrong, if rationally self-interested is your metric.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#484

Post by hox »

colechristensen wrote: post #475
rifung wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

A startup is a good place to accelerate yourself to an L5 somewhere else. If you are on a team of n 1000.

True in some regards, but it’s also incredibly easy to learn how to do things the wrong way, if you have no one to learn from.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#485

Post by bitwize »

Pros: Work with cutting-edge tools and languages. Work with people who basically know their shit. You're given much more responsibility, hence control, upfront. Process isn't ossified. Flexible hours.

Cons: Hope you like your coworkers because you'll be working cheek-by-jowl with them in someone's coworking space or crammed in a garage or something. They will try to pay you partially or entirely in Bison dollars (equity). You are assumed to have flexible hours so I hope your evenings and weekends are free. A company without solid footing can go tits up once the VC funding dries up, sending you on an early job search.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#486

Post by shamino »

warcher wrote: post #478
shamino wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day, when your company gets sold, and your founder worked on the company for 1-2 years before you did, but they walk away with millions and you walk away with the equivalent of a Camry - I question whether equity is not the solution. In terms of market rate salary, the startup will never match FAANG. Seriously. I'm talking about Sign-on bonus, annual bonus, re-ups, benefits (like a heart-transplant…

Respectfully, if you don’t like the split, the clear answer is to be a founder. The option is available to all, but very few take it. For really good reasons.

The point is that startups are not competitive in recruiting good talent, and they go to the large companies.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#487

Post by mcafeeryan92 »

I see a lot of talk about comp, and that is 100% an issue (particularly considering the time-value of money, that every year that you're earning more money you can earn ~10% long-term on that in your IRA/401k).

But, considering there is only so much money that startups have access to, and most early employees are not primarily motivated by money (I would hope, or else they are likely quite naive), the biggest let-down I've experienced as an early employee, that would have made up for the lower comp, would be actual access to the founders' networks and learning opportunities.

If being an early employee meant getting to meet with investors and help the founder raise money (and make an impression on those investors), if it meant being actively involved in the struggles of the founders involved in running a startup, then I suspect those of us who wish to start our own startup some day would consider that a reasonably attractive opportunity to really learn those skills and build their network.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#488

Post by sidlls »

qaq wrote: post #468
sidlls wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and that's my point: startup compensation is below market even for average, not well known companies.

Linkedin Oracle etc. are not well known companies :)?

My company isn't well known and the 200 or so engineers who work here have an average all-inclusive compensation north of $200k (many see above $225k).

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#489

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #470
Jach wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems). 8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions? 9. Do you use the best tools money can buy? Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and…

> Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and private space, but they don't. i agree that they should do that. OTOH space isn't cheap. i recall a scrappy startup where 20 people were packed inside a live-work loft. the CEO's office was the master bathroom.

Not every start-up could afford it, sure. But by the time you are well-capitalized, it’s not an excuse, and as Stack Overflow has shown, it’s not that hard to afford even in Manhattan.

When young start-ups are spending millions on the company’s third wave coffee station and opulent roof deck for obligatory alcohol drenched happy hours, you know it’s not cost keeping them from prioritizing ergonomy-focused private & quiet work space.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#490

Post by mcafeeryan92 »

mcafeeryan92 wrote: post #487

I see a lot of talk about comp, and that is 100% an issue (particularly considering the time-value of money, that every year that you're earning more money you can earn ~10% long-term on that in your IRA/401k). But, considering there is only so much money that startups have access to, and most early employees are not primarily motivated by money (I would hope, or else they are likely quite naive), the biggest let-dow…

The other thing that I think would be great if YCombinator threw their weight behind would be lobbying for universal healthcare.

I (and many others, I presume) would be much less risk-averse and more likely to start a startup or work at a startup if healthcare wasn't so expensive. One of the biggest benefits of working at a big company is their good health insurance, which many startups are lacking. So not only do you get paid less at startups, but your costs are higher if you or anyone in your family gets sick.

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