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US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

zdnet.com

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Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#481

Post by jadedhacker »

fixermark wrote: post #413
jadedhacker wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Users get no benefit from information resale. 2) COINTELPRO

Keep in mind: most users are not part of a domestic political organization targeted by the FBI, so again, when the rubber hits the road, they'd rather not be inconvenienced for a risk that applies to other people. They don't care about COINTELPRO (disregarding, of course, the percentage of the population that actually thinks the FBI digging into "subversive" groups is part of its job). Users get no benefit from the i…

What I'd say is that until somewhat recently, I was interested in politics but not engaged. I took your position during that part of my life. Now that I'm actually engaging in political activities, COINTELPRO and its current incarnations scare the bejesus out of me, and I'm not doing anything that radical, just left of the Democratic Party. YMMV.

There may come a time in your life when you wish to have a say in the political system or are wronged by a powerful corporation. You'd care in that case. When your political rights disappear, they aren't easy to get back.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#482

Post by e40 »

mohaine wrote: post #438
8_hours_ago wrote: post #351

I believe the relevant T-Mobile privacy policy (that I definitely read before signing up...) is: "With your consent. We may provide location-based services or provide third parties with access to your approximate location to provide services to you." https://www.t-mobile.com/company/website/privacypolicy.aspx That is why a text message confirmation is required to get a cell phone's location from https://www.locations…

Well, the locationsmart fails completely on my Google fi phone.

I'm on Project Fi and it worked for my phone.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#483

Post by fixermark »

jadedhacker wrote: post #481
fixermark wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind: most users are not part of a domestic political organization targeted by the FBI, so again, when the rubber hits the road, they'd rather not be inconvenienced for a risk that applies to other people. They don't care about COINTELPRO (disregarding, of course, the percentage of the population that actually thinks the FBI digging into "subversive" groups is part of its job). Users get no benefit from the i…

What I'd say is that until somewhat recently, I was interested in politics but not engaged. I took your position during that part of my life. Now that I'm actually engaging in political activities, COINTELPRO and its current incarnations scare the bejesus out of me, and I'm not doing anything that radical, just left of the Democratic Party. YMMV. There may come a time in your life when you wish to have a say in the p…

I agree that one in that context cares, but I think you can agree that most people are not in that context. So on the whole, they receive benefits from deep data integration and no immediate downsides.

Which circles back to the original question: should a person feel guilt over creating tools that help the average user and harm the political dissident? Seems an open question. Perhaps one heavily dependent upon whether the actor agrees with the political dissident's position.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#484

Post by CamperBob2 »

fixermark wrote: post #262
Mononokay wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel guilt over creating them?

Should they? The vast quantity of users find it incredibly useful and have no reason to be concerned about governments or third parties being able to determine their geographic location, because governments or third parties don't generally care.

It's not about being able to track everybody. You're right, nobody cares about that.

It's about being able to track anybody.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#485

Post by [deleted] »

hanbura wrote: post #440
fixermark wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should they? The vast quantity of users find it incredibly useful and have no reason to be concerned about governments or third parties being able to determine their geographic location, because governments or third parties don't generally care.

>have no reason to be concerned about governments ... Many aren't, but everyone has reason to. Governments change. Telling your government your religion in 1920s Germany was harmless, in 1940 many would have preferred if the government didn't have their religion on file. Circumstances change to. In 1920 being a Japanese in the US wasn't special. After Perl Harbor came the internment camps. And then there's the mundan…

[deleted]

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#486

Post by joshdance »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

I agree some of this is happening but some things don't add up.

Is there a huge delay in this data? Because why don't law agencies use it to find criminals? Like I have 2 crimes at these two locations. Who was around these 2 locations at these times etc.

But if hedge funds are trading on it, they need very low latencies?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#487

Post by reverend_gonzo »

joshdance wrote: post #486
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

I agree some of this is happening but some things don't add up. Is there a huge delay in this data? Because why don't law agencies use it to find criminals? Like I have 2 crimes at these two locations. Who was around these 2 locations at these times etc. But if hedge funds are trading on it, they need very low latencies?

> But if hedge funds are trading on it, they need very low latencies?

Not quite. Hedge funds aren't trading real time on this data. They use this data to essentially figure out how a business is doing before they announce that information. Essentially, if x% of our data went to Chipotle in 2016 and y% went in 2017, and y >> x, then we expect Chipotle's earnings to be higher.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#488

Post by 8_hours_ago »

aarongray wrote: post #474
8_hours_ago wrote: post #351

I believe the relevant T-Mobile privacy policy (that I definitely read before signing up...) is: "With your consent. We may provide location-based services or provide third parties with access to your approximate location to provide services to you." https://www.t-mobile.com/company/website/privacypolicy.aspx That is why a text message confirmation is required to get a cell phone's location from https://www.locations…

I think the ACLU did a report a while back and Cricket Wireless was the best large ish cell phone provider. Provider comparison: https://privacysos.org/blog/how-long-does-my-phone-company-s... Study details: https://privacysos.org/blog/att-stores-either-five-or-twenty...

Cricket's Privacy Policy looks much better than T-Mobile's or Google Fi's:

"We will not sell your personal information to anyone, for any purpose. Period." https://www.cricketwireless.com/privacy

But they also say that they may share personal information (which may include location??) to 3rd parties with user "consent":

"Do you share my Personal Information with other companies for them to market to me?

We may share your Personal Information with AT&T and other AT&T affiliates for a variety of purpose, including so that they can market products and services to you. Except for AT&T and other AT&T affiliates, we will not share your Personal Information with other companies for them to use for the marketing of their own products and services without your consent."

Can someone with Cricket Wireless see if LocationSmart has access to their location https://www.locationsmart.com/try/ ?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#489

Post by jadedhacker »

fixermark wrote: post #483
jadedhacker wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'd say is that until somewhat recently, I was interested in politics but not engaged. I took your position during that part of my life. Now that I'm actually engaging in political activities, COINTELPRO and its current incarnations scare the bejesus out of me, and I'm not doing anything that radical, just left of the Democratic Party. YMMV. There may come a time in your life when you wish to have a say in the p…

I agree that one in that context cares, but I think you can agree that most people are not in that context. So on the whole, they receive benefits from deep data integration and no immediate downsides. Which circles back to the original question: should a person feel guilt over creating tools that help the average user and harm the political dissident? Seems an open question. Perhaps one heavily dependent upon whethe…

Generally, dissent is a healthy thing and you'll get a better society that way. Once the capability for real dissent is eroded, the social controls of the society will be turned to the benefit of the victorious faction. This turns out poorly for everyone else.

We should not be creating a mass surveillance state. The actual abuses domestically generally of minority populations, abroad, generally of non-NATO civilian populations, and potential domestic abuses (with many well noted assassinations and infiltrations in the past) are alarming and have already stronger, more precise abilities for social control of the population by the state than existed in dictatorships. The Stasi would have killed for the NSA's database and planting live tracking beacons on most citizens.

I'm on the left, but the non-financial political freedoms of the right are a bellwether for my own (though the literally genocidal far right is a more complex discussion). In general this makes a lot of logical sense because conservatives and right wing ideologues wish to maintain the status quo (literally to conserve it) or to return society to a past state (e.g. the relation of men and women, the role of religion, etc.), and range from libertarian to authoritarian, neither of which really threaten established authorities (and often reinforce them) and so are treated with kid gloves (watch how police treat right wingers at protests on average). Blue lives matter is a right wing cri de cœur that's an example of a "protest" that celebrates existing civil authorities.

Liberals and more-so leftists wish to change society into a new state which threatens the established order. Therefore, the civil authorities do not treat them with deference. Typically political freedoms lost by the right are applied with vengeance against the left.

Encourage dissent. We make fun of countries that don't. :)

EDIT: added info on why losses of political freedoms for the right are an especially bad bellwether

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