Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#481

Post by warrenm » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

munchbunny wrote: post #325

komali2 wrote: post #216

>Total Jobs Applied For: 82 >Total Jobs Where You Got an HR Interview 25 >Total Jobs Where You Got a Technical Interview: 15 >Total Jobs Where You Got an Onsite Interview: 2 >Total Job Offers: 1 From a recruitment standpoint, this guy's "sales funnel" is remarkably efficient. I'm more used to seeing a ration of 100 applications > 10-15 phone calls > 5 onsites/technicals > 1 offer. Needless to say he blew the initial…

The only thing I've found to help with this sales funnel is... to know a lot of people, and to invest time in networking. It sucks because in a meritocratic system it shouldn't work this way, but it does. I'm neck deep in my job search, and I'm getting to the HR interview at rates around 30-40%, but that's because I'm getting to the HR interview at rates near 90% where I was able to get someone to refer me or send my…

HR is filtering - in my experience - 100s or 1000s of people for a single role (or small handful of roles).

That you are seeing 30-40% HR interview rates shows you've got something on your resume (or your referrals) that's pushing your resume higher on the stack.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#482

Post by khedoros1 » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #469

Retric wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in no way a fear of firing someone that's little easy. The fear is the weeks/months of issues before someone is fired. Further, many people that are part of the process will be working with this person, but not be able to fire them.

Is there also a fear of three people doing the work of four for weeks/months since there's the possibility someone could be a bad hire? Is there not also a fear that an overworked person will become toxic?

> Is there also a fear of three people doing the work of four for weeks/months since there's the possibility someone could be a bad hire?

Apparently not at my employer. My team was 10 people 4 years ago, and we're down to 6 now, without much dip in workload. We had someone leave about a month ago, and we're still fighting to get a job rec to replace that person.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#483

Post by mooreds » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

AndyNemmity wrote: post #206

jandrewrogers wrote: post #137

To take a more nuanced view, I think there is an important distinction, frequently lost, between "can't code" -- which is all too common in practice -- and "can't easily code a stream-of-consciousness solution to a synthetic problem unrelated to anything I've ever built". Or its close cousin "can't easily code a toy solution to your toy problem since I've only worked on massively scalable versions of the same problem…

It also entirely depends on your career path. Mine didn't involve programming outside of shell for most of it, and involved tons of deep expertise on a variety of topics. I was shocked doing an interview in my last round and got so many test questions. I bombed so hard because it wasn't what I was doing. The real key to me is, we treat all of these jobs as more or less the same, when in reality they are all vastly di…

"There is no singular senior engineer skill set, but a variety." Amen!

I wrote a whole blog post on that: http://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/2812

I just wish companies would be more upfront about what they really needed, as opposed to the wishlist.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#484

Post by rs999gti » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

> 2. No one believes that anyone can actually code.

>When did an entire industry of people get pre-judged as lying? Don’t we exist in a country where the default assumption is innocence not guilt?

The coding tests and whiteboard sessions are necessary because there are no standards in the software development industry.

There is no license, no standardized test, no nothing for me to judge if you're a liar or the greatest thing to show up for an interview. There is no professional developer license like a professional engineer license and exam, which helps me distinguish between you being a beginner or a senior/lead developer.

Without professional standards, all developers will continue to need to show who they are and what they can do.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#485

Post by ropeadopepope » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #80

Maybe the difference in people's experience with candidates who can't code is that some types of programming are full of BSers and others aren't. In nearly 30 years I've never encountered a candidate who flat-out couldn't code. If you see a lot of that in your specialty, maybe you should ask yourself what it is about that specialty that leads to a different experience.

What field do you work in?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#486

Post by ropeadopepope » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

modbait wrote: post #178

notacoward wrote: post #80

Maybe the difference in people's experience with candidates who can't code is that some types of programming are full of BSers and others aren't. In nearly 30 years I've never encountered a candidate who flat-out couldn't code. If you see a lot of that in your specialty, maybe you should ask yourself what it is about that specialty that leads to a different experience.

That's been my experience as well. In addition, people are generally pretty honest about where they're at, skill-wise. That said, I have seen several people who were open about lacking the basic requirements for a position get hired anyway. So, I wouldn't assume that seeing someone incompetent in a position means they lied to get there.

What field do you work in?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#487

Post by mooreds » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

Wow, I recently went through this experience and totally agree with all of the points. My only addition would be to ask someone on the inside for feedback, if at all possible. That was the only way I was able to get any tips that helped me improve.

Also, I interviewed with a company called Jumpcloud in Boulder. The interview process itself left some things to be desired but I'm writing to give them a huge shout out that they actually gave me real, concrete feedback on how my homework assignment wasn't up to snuff. Thank you Jumpcloud!

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#488

Post by ModernMech » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

thegayngler wrote: post #365

jandrewrogers wrote: post #137

To take a more nuanced view, I think there is an important distinction, frequently lost, between "can't code" -- which is all too common in practice -- and "can't easily code a stream-of-consciousness solution to a synthetic problem unrelated to anything I've ever built". Or its close cousin "can't easily code a toy solution to your toy problem since I've only worked on massively scalable versions of the same problem…

Most engineers would not hire themselves. That has been apparent to me for awhile now. I’m not sure why they expect people to be to be better than they were when they were hired. I don’t expect engineers to be better than me. I have but one qualification. Can they do the job? Are they strong enough that I can guide them into the position I need them at if it is required. So much focus has been put on 10x this and hig…

> Companies waste lots of engineering talent and company money looking for 10x when 10x is mostly situational in nature. ... In one scene the engineers are not producing. Change the scene and now they are 10x

I can relate to this. I have pretty good resume - good schools, advanced degree, impressive sounding projects, a long list of publications. My track-record suggests I am at least a 3x engineer.

So when I get into a coding interview, I'm expected to perform as such... but I usually come off as a 0.3x engineer. Like really bad. Forget syntax bad. Forget algorithms bad. I've bombed so bad in a technical interview, the interviewer questioned if I even knew basic trigonometry. They had spent 10 hours interviewing me prior and felt good, but got me in person and suddenly thought I was an idiot.

In each of my jobs, I've had a considerable ramp-up period. I'm talking 6 months or more of feeling completely lost and unproductive. I get in my head and it makes me perform worse.

If I'm not fired in that first period, I'm lucky. Only after about a year on the job I can perform at the level my resume would suggest.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#489

Post by 1812Overture » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

s2g wrote: post #88

geebee wrote: post #31

Thank you for writing this post. It was informative. A few comments from a fellow software developer who is approaching 50... I don't think the coding test isn't there because people think you're lying, it's there because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam. Actuarial interviews don't (to my knowledge) contain a whiteboard vector calculus exam, but this isn't because people just sort of believe actuarie…

> it's there because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam So you think the person with 30 years experience might be, whats the word... oh right. Lying. You think they are lying. Quit trying to dress it up. Coding tests are exactly you saying you don't believe the experience written on the resume.

I've seen plenty of "coders" with 15+ years experience maintaining and changing other peoples code that couldn't write code from scratch to save their lives. You see it mostly from people who've spent a lot of time someplace huge and old and corporate.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#490

Post by ra1n85 » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #223

I have a theory of why most of these changes in the job hunt came about: people became afraid of firing. I further theorize that this is an indirect consequence of primarily technical folks filling management roles. How does a fear of firing impact hiring procedures? If you are afraid of firing, you're afraid that you won't be able to get rid of a toxic individual; that a single individual will act as a poison to the…

Totally agree.

Looking back, often no talent has been better than poor talent (or those that actually decrease group productivity). Huge opportunity cost with bad hires, and even more challenging to move them out to somewhere that they would be happier/more effective/less disruptive.