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‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

nymag.com

481–490 of 618 posts

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#481
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mixing up liberal with libertarian.

Libertarians are at least related to liberals, but it seems the words left, liberal, and libertarian are often confusing, and they're not very fine grained descriptions anyway.

In the US they are related to conservatives as well. Libertarians share very little with liberals when it comes to views on what the government should regulate.

The thing they have in common is social liberalism (allow gay marriage, individual drug use, etc).

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally the problem, I think is anonymity. On the Internet no one knows you're a dog. I have both pseudonymous handles on reddit and also I go by my own name. On Hacker News I only go by my own name. And I have found that it made me a much, MUCH better person when posting. So now I post on reddit about 95% of the time under my own name as well. When you have no skin in the game -- such as your reputation to uph…

We've seen with facebook that have real names doesn't improve the level of discourse that much. I think it's the protection (or at least the apparent protection): you can't be a jerk in person in a public place without exposing yourself to immediate negative repercussions. That's why online forums with harsher moderation are usually much better (one of the best examples being /r/askhistorians).

Indeed I 5hink it's the missing direct personal contact.

It takes a lot of, say, training, to learn to use communication media, too. You just can't have a chat as if face to face, in writing. And most people aren't well educated at authoring, either. At the worst, some wouldn't even know how to lead a conversation anyhow. Online forums just expose that. And I think we as a society at large, are still figuring this out, since 50 to 100 years, so it's a mess.

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "right-wing" he means the particularly virulent ur-fascist type of characters. If you don't think that is a problem then... well, I can't help you.

Then he should say "virulent ur-fascists."

Can’t argue with that, but contextually it was reasonably clear. Also it is a right wing position, just not the only one.

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#484

Reddit wouldn't be so toxic if the vote counts were hidden, but echo chamber validation is the ultimate badge of honor there. There is so much in this document that applies to all things Reddit (please note that I wrote it inspired by my time on Reddit) : https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/Avoiding_Tr...

Fundamentally the problem, I think is anonymity. On the Internet no one knows you're a dog. I have both pseudonymous handles on reddit and also I go by my own name. On Hacker News I only go by my own name. And I have found that it made me a much, MUCH better person when posting. So now I post on reddit about 95% of the time under my own name as well. When you have no skin in the game -- such as your reputation to uph…

Pseudonyms are just a symptom, I guess. A name is another channel for communication. For real names, origin was usually intimitly tied to identity. John Doe or Lisa Muller is as much a pseudonym as JDog123 would be, without further references. Real Name policy much relates to overlap between internet and local interactionnand discoverability. If I don't need to be discovered by non locals (as defined by my off-line reach; which today is a false schism, but anyway), I can use my name for artful expression.

There are cases where I don't want to be discovered, too. The latter, Obscurity (hiding), shouldn't be confused with the former, Security (literally without worry or need).

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#485
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit user for 10 years. I have never seen a random skinhead pop into the comments. And if they were to do so, they would get downvoted to oblivion...

Anecdotally, I’ve also been there for 10 years and have seen that. Beyond e.g. GamerGate one really annoying group used to spam city subreddits with stories about black people committing crimes (not even in that city) and the usual “some people are just more criminal” racism talk. They’d get a few downvotes but also had their buddies upvote them enough to show why that’s not an effective solution.

How long ago was that?

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder if a connection has been found in even a single case. I'd argue that the psychopaths who're attracted to such forums have their hateful beliefs reinforced and amplified by them. Whether or not they would've ended up killing people even if they'd never started hanging out on those forums is hard to say, but it seems pretty naïve to me to assume that those "hate speech" venues didn't have an effect on them. S…

> I'd argue that the psychopaths who're attracted to such forums have their hateful beliefs reinforced and amplified by them I agree. I think the echo chamber effect is well documented at this point, and it's something that's happening even in mainstream media. I would still hesitate to say that we should lay the blame on these forums though, or undeniably conclude that that's where we should be making changes to pre…

>I would still hesitate to say that we should lay the blame on these forums though, or undeniably conclude that that's where we should be making changes to prevent such problems.

I wouldn't say lay the blame on the forums for the actions for their members, however I do think it would be somewhat justified to lay the blame on forums for knowingly allowing these hateful ideologies to spread to more and more people due to their lack of action/moderation. It's been shown that banning hateful subreddits reduces the amount of hate speech on the site by users who used to post on those banned subreddits.[1] It's hard to say if those users simply took their hate speech to some other website, but even if they did their sphere of influence would then most likely be much smaller than it was on reddit.

>If we hold free speech as a principle in high regard, we shouldn't so easily sacrifice it.

This is a difficult topic but I think that there definitely should be some limits. After all we're talking about what rules private companies should have for what kind of content is allowed on their websites (i.e. what content they are okay with hosting on their servers) and not what kind of content the government should allow/disallow.

A viewpoint I found interesting (and reasonable) in regards to limiting speech is Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance.

"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

[1] http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder if a connection has been found in even a single case. I'd argue that the psychopaths who're attracted to such forums have their hateful beliefs reinforced and amplified by them. Whether or not they would've ended up killing people even if they'd never started hanging out on those forums is hard to say, but it seems pretty naïve to me to assume that those "hate speech" venues didn't have an effect on them. S…

You could argue that, but there's no real evidence for it and it's been studied with music, television and video games. All have been blamed, using the argument that you'd have to be naive to assume that killing people in a video game doesn't have an effect on someone's likelihood of killing people in real life, or listening to angry music makes you more likely to hurt people. The list of murderers who've listened to…

I don't know about the other media, but the effects of TV are both disastrous and thoroughly demonstrated. IQ, SAT scores, obesity, teen pregnancy, violence, tobacco… Depending on what you watch and how often, all can be increased. All won't show on each individual, but the statistical effect is far from negligible.

As for video games… that's a tricky one. I recall an anecdote about two teens holding up a bakery at gun point. The baker at some point made a move that was a bit too sudden, and the teen shot him in the forehead. One possible facilitator is very similar to a soldier's training: simple conditioning about shooting the bad guys as soon as they threaten your avatar in your favourite FPS. For all I know the teen didn't even intend to shoot.

Of course, it takes more than a lifetime of violent video games to actually point a gun at someone. But a tiny nudge can sometimes push you over the edge. By the way, I expect the nudge will get bigger with VR. (So will the benefits, I expect.)

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#488
I was quite disappointed not to see more from McComas on what went wrong with his so-called kinder, gentler Reddit alternative, Imzy.

He briefly mentions the investors, but not his role in the site, its own group behaviours, staff, etc. I'd explored it and was impressed by several of its technical features, but found the net of its founding cohort and technical design, as well as staff and volunteer management & moderation, hands down the most toxic online experience I've seen in 30+ years. (Yes, pre-dating the Web.)

The session-based anonymous identity dynamic in particular gave rise to dynamics such that every conversation was a single-iteration Prisoners Dilemma encounter with a strong dose of Zimbardo.

I've been hoping to see a post mortem with some degree of introspection. That's not happened.

More on my experiences: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/500ysb/the_imz...

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've seen with facebook that have real names doesn't improve the level of discourse that much. Yeah, okay. How about: real names + no private gardens.

What does "private garden" mean here? People have no problem showing up on public Facebook groups, visible to all, and posting racist stuff in their real names.

I think, and totally admit it is pure speculation, that the hate foments in the private garden until the person is brainwashed enough to believe their hate is a normal and acceptable viewpoint. It is at that point that it leaks out into the public groups, visible to all.

Re: ‘I Fundamentally Believe That My Time at Reddit Made the World a Worse Place’

#490

Many of the comments here are picking apart pieces of subreddit drama or are discussing specific Reddit positions, but I think that's missing the forest for the trees. The VC grow-at-all-costs model seems to be resulting in monopolistic business practices and more negative externalities than positive ones. Msatodon/GNU Social/Qvitter right now is a thriving social network run by instance owners that federate their in…

Some programmers see a problem and say "I know, I'll add federation". Now you have 7 problems. More seriously, I'm not seeing how federation solves any social network problem better than subreddits did? In either case, the quality of the discussion will depend on the moderators, who can be good, bad, or evil.

Switter was back online with a new CDN within a day because it's run from and (previous CDN aside) hosted in places where sex work isn't seen as a crime. They grew to tens of thousands quickly because they could tap into the existing federation, so they didn't need a marketing budget or sales team like Twitter.

People can make their own thing under their own geography-bound laws while still connecting with a global network. That's really neat.

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