Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#481

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #430

ubernostrum wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he wasn't actually saying anything particularly bad. Careful there. What you mean is he wasn't saying anything you personally consider particularly bad. This is not the same thing as "objectively not bad". This is not the same thing as "something no reasonable person could object to". And jumping from your personal opinion that it wasn't bad straight to "a breathtaking level of authoritarian ideological adher…

This is not the same thing as "objectively not bad". Anything that requires an imputational and emotional interpretation (which can't be supported by particular facts) to be "bad" is "objectively not bad." if we assume he had some purpose in mind that he thought was important Here, you're basically admitting that the reading required to support your position is an imputational and emotional interpretation which can't…

So let's play with this a bit.

We're at a point where we've got actual empirical data showing that in a bunch of other fields of human endeavor which have:

1. Seen a huge observed gender gap, and

2. Comforted themselves with "rational" and "objective" and "scientific" explanations to prove it wasn't their fault, and

3. Eventually been persuaded to try even simple measures to test whether bias on the part of people in that field played a part, it's been discovered that

4. Outcomes drastically changed once those simple measures were adopted, in a way which clearly and beyond reasonable doubt put the lie to the explanations claimed in (2).

To buy Damore's arguments we must either ignore this evidence, or somehow buy into a completely unsupported assumption that computer programming -- for reasons nobody knows -- is completely and utterly unique, and as a result that the solutions used in other fields are inapplicable and off-limits to programming. Even worse: we have to believe that about a field which previously did not have such a huge gap, and acquired it only relatively recently.

To anyone who does a bit of actual research on this stuff, Damore is practically a cliché. He's the person who ends up in the history book under "wow, people actually used to believe that stuff".

Meanwhile, you want to have your knee-jerk reflexes checked, judging by the kinds of catchphrases you immediately jump to when confronted with even mild disagreement.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#482

Post by alsetmusic » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #387

Arainach wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Team interaction is a software engineering skill. The ability to work with a diverse set of people and bring them together rather than disparaging and dividing them is a software engineering skill. I would rather have a good programmer who got along with my team than a great one that wrote such memos.

Then perhaps Google shouldn't ask for feedback on their courses. Seems rather disingenuous to say the least.

> Then perhaps Google shouldn't ask for feedback on their courses. Seems rather disingenuous to say the least.

My impression is that he circulated his “feedback” among employees. I would be surprised if that was requested by Google.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#483

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #477

ThomPete wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stefan Molyneux is not alt-right where do you get that idea from? Milo was one of the most hated people by the alt-right, his husband is black, how much more do you need for him to most probably no being alt-right?. I refuse to believe that anyone who sincerely and honestly spent any time looking into the actual opinions of Milo, Ben Shapiro, Molyneux etc and not just cherry-picked soundbites would make such claims a…

Both Politico and the Washington Post describe Molyneux as alt-right. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/trump-alt-ri... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/...

Do they make distinctions between the 4 major sub-groups? Molyneux is, as far as I know, a kooky Libertarian. Mainstream media is getting pretty skewed and desperate for eyeballs. If you're not shocked and dismayed, you're not looking very hard. Basically, in these death-throe days of old media news, you have to do your own fact checking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ykkHNRAro

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#484

Post by jeffmould » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

mistersquid wrote: post #421

jeffmould wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NLRB has a vast reach that many employees are completely unaware of. Several years ago I was the lead plaintiff in a class-action lawsuit against an employer. About 6 months after I filed the lawsuit my employer fired me for fabricated "disciplinary" reasons (not unexpectedly on my behalf, it did take them longer to react than I had thought). Of course, my attorneys immediately sunk their teeth in this terminatio…

If you don't mind my asking and if you are at liberty to say, what was the basis of the original class action suit?

I was a restaurant manager. It was "alleged" that the owners were operating an "illegal tip pool" and "skimming" from said pool, as well as not paying proper wages (i.e. overtime, hourly minimum wage).

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#485

Post by alsetmusic » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #416

rmrm wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not allowed to make protected groups feel harassed or discriminated against. Women are a protected group. Its a federal workplace law. A company will correctly fire you if you cause women to feel harassed or discriminated. Peoples understanding of whats allowable needs to catch up with the implications of the laws.

That is true. But I ask you this: do companies hire less technically capable engineers to boost diversity numbers? Do you believe that it does not happen at all, in any sense? If you think that this does not happen, then how do companies boost the numbers of non-traditional candidates? Google, as smart as they are, should be able to easily and conclusively prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this does not happen. Ye…

> Google, as smart as they are, should be able to easily and conclusively prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this does not happen. Yet they resort to silencing.

You’re suggesting that they should prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the party that accuses them of a given issue.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#486

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:14 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #456

tptacek wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender and age diversity improved with work sample testing (but we never had to scale it to a point where we challenged our candidate pipeline, which was drawn pretty conventionally from commercial programmers, so, like everyone else, our candidate pipeline was male-dominated). We tried to do a company premised on scaling it up, so that we could place enough candidates to service a truly large funnel. I looked forwar…

so, like everyone else, our candidate pipeline was male-dominated Doesn't a situation where the candidate pipeline is so skewed call to question the desirability of "equality of outcomes?" It would also make me question ideological doubling-down, and mob psychology behaviors like ridiculing managers who hadn't met quotas yet. Such behaviors in such a context, like that of the Google which James Damore described, stri…

"Equality of outcomes" is a political catch phrase, and not one I introduced into the conversation.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#487

Post by monkeywork » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:15 AM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #458

whataretensors wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a despicable thing to destroy someone over an idea, despite the contents of that idea. I think tech workers are easy targets. For instance, we've all heard about the need for diversity in tech, but never hear about accredited investors being < 6 % female and < 1 % black.

> It's a despicable thing to destroy someone over an idea, despite the contents of that idea. Well, if I find out anyone holds nazi ideologies I'm happy to socially "destroy" them over those ideas. I agree that the government shouldn't punish them for those ideas, but I think individual citizens and entities have every right to disassociate and socially punish someone for those ideas. Now, I'm not saying that Damore'…

That serves to do is cause those who have been destroyed to seek out others like themselves and create an echo chamber where they get more extreme, alternatively it gets others to simply go dark in regards to their thoughts -- they still have them (possibly even more re-enforced because now you have given them an enemy) and they will toe the line until they can get into a position to push back.

You stamp this out instead by finding out how the people ended up with those views to begin with, by being able to engage with those who view the world different from you, and by not fueling their hate.

Does this work for ever person - no, but it should be at least attempted.

(fyi - this is more a general comment about social media slayings that are way too common, I'm not being sympathetic to anyone who considers themselves a nazi).

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#488

Post by monkeywork » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:16 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #394

Consultant32452 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we differentiate between firing Damore and participating in a nation-wide metaphorical public hanging?

> Can we differentiate between firing Damore and participating in a nation-wide metaphorical public hanging? Yes. Starting with the first is a thing that actually happened, and the second is not, so it's not worth talking about.

If you don't think that the social media / internet whipping that Damore and frankly anyone else that steps outside of several key echo chambers gets isn't real then I strongly doubt how good of faith you are in this conversation.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#489

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:17 AM UTC

Sabinus wrote: post #461

ThomPete wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stefan Molyneux is not alt-right where do you get that idea from? Milo was one of the most hated people by the alt-right, his husband is black, how much more do you need for him to most probably no being alt-right?. I refuse to believe that anyone who sincerely and honestly spent any time looking into the actual opinions of Milo, Ben Shapiro, Molyneux etc and not just cherry-picked soundbites would make such claims a…

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He was employed by Breitbart.

What neo-nazi, neo-white supremacy, neo-fascist, neo-fascists or another hate-group view have you heard Milo consistently claim?

I am aware of his provocations and yes he can be extreme but calling him alt-right while he is at the same time one of the most hated on the alt-right.

Breitbart was a more of an alt-media rather than alt-right. He didn't care about peoples political views he was after the existing media.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#490

Post by Consultant32452 » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:18 AM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #458

whataretensors wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a despicable thing to destroy someone over an idea, despite the contents of that idea. I think tech workers are easy targets. For instance, we've all heard about the need for diversity in tech, but never hear about accredited investors being < 6 % female and < 1 % black.

> It's a despicable thing to destroy someone over an idea, despite the contents of that idea. Well, if I find out anyone holds nazi ideologies I'm happy to socially "destroy" them over those ideas. I agree that the government shouldn't punish them for those ideas, but I think individual citizens and entities have every right to disassociate and socially punish someone for those ideas. Now, I'm not saying that Damore'…

>I agree that Damore probably should be "destroyed" for his ideas (for whatever a definition of "destroyed" is that obviously isn't literal destruction), but I don't see why being fired is problematic for the way he shared those ideas in the workplace.

I'm the OP whose comment started this mini-firestorm of a discussion and I think you and I are probably very closely aligned. I'll try to state plainly how I feel about the whole situation.

I'll start with a quote by Albert Maysles, "Tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance." I can definitely see how a percentage of his memo can be interpreted as offensive. I don't know all the internal information about how everyone was behaving, but I'd like to think that if it were my company I would have treated this as a teachable moment and had a frank discussion with him in HR. That said, I fully support Google's right to fire him even if I take the most generous interpretations of the memo, because frankly I'm a huge supporter of at-will employment.

The problem that I have is the way the national media and general public responded to this situation. Damore is a nobody with no power who might have some incorrect ideas about diversity policy. I should have never heard of him. And I definitely should have never heard of him under national front page headlines with titles about an "anti-diversity manifesto." This is a meek and mild super-nerd, not David Duke. Thrusting him into the national spotlight in this way was clearly going to destroy his career and was completely unnecessary.