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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#481

Post by saas_co_de »

praestigiare wrote: post #375
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

This can definitely be the case. There are lots of sh--ty white male programmers working in the industry.

I have met plenty of white men who have masters level CS education, have worked for Google and other top name companies, and can't produce a line of useful working code to save their lives.

The reasons why corporations frequently hire people who don't actually produce anything are varied and complex, but it happens, a lot.

If someone is incompetent and also happens to be from a minority group then everyone starts complaining about how they are a "diversity hire" but with incompetent white males they just shrug and go "that's the way it is." In other words, it is so common with white males that no one even notices.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#482

Post by threeseed »

5ilv3r wrote: post #457
threeseed wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.

Ethnicity and gender are on their job application form.

No it isn't. Try applying for a job:

https://www.google.com/about/careers

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#483

Post by Alex3917 »

lukev wrote: post #333
Alex3917 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the consensus is that biological sex differences are not that big of an effect, certainly not enough to explain the gender disparity in tech. Whether sex differences explain the gender disparity in tech isn't even the kind of question that cog dev folks ask.

Except it is. Damore himself cites a study by David Schmitt at Bradley University, indicating that women had certain personality traits across cultures. What did Shmitt have to say about Damore, when interviewed? > “It is unclear to me that this sex difference would play a role in success within the Google workplace (in particular, not being able to handle stresses of leadership in the workplace. That’s a huge stretc…

> It is unclear to me that this sex difference would play a role in success within the Google workplace (in particular, not being able to handle stresses of leadership in the workplace. That’s a huge stretch to me.)

In other words, "that's not the kind of question we ask."

Also I looked at the citations, neither of the metastudies looks at differences in sensory perception which imho are the most interesting of the sex differences. But even ignoring that, looking at the statistical significance of certain population traits doesn't tell you anything about their clinical significance. E.g. if you look at two groups of 100 people and one group is 100% alive and the other group is 99% alive, there isn't a significant effect size, but there is a big difference to that one person.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#484

Post by mpweiher »

chasing wrote: post #212
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, someone else released his memo externally.

"Then he published an internal memo arguing against that stance."

Feedback was explicitly solicited, and he published it in that forum.

If the company doesn't want views that might contradict current policy, it should not solicit feedback.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#485

Post by 5ilv3r »

AlwaysBCoding wrote: post #440
nashashmi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you switch out words of gender with words of race, it may sound more offensive. That is what the Youtube CEO said and it immediately began to make sense.

"If you change what he said it sounds worse" lol, is that seriously your argument?

It's a very good argument. Behavior that is ok for one group should be ok for another group, and viceversa. That is a truth of equality.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#486

Post by huffpopo »

Even if James Damore does not win Google has a number of practices that could be considered embarrassing if they were to be made public. I know a number of Googlers who confide to me privately about their experiences. Traditionally they would not have an outlet to express their grievances because no-one really cares. I'm hoping this lawsuit will give them and others a chance leak some of these practices. I'm interested in what people outside of SV tech bubble will think about it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#487

Post by psyc »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

I think a reasonable person can find snippets of what he wrote distasteful. But it’s more like uncomfortable. I agree there is truth in it.

It’s very obvious to me that the negative reaction was greatly amplified by the ever-outraged and ever-posturing social (media) justice contingent.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#488

Post by elicash »

tomp wrote: post #64
paulgb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the quote you pulled not saying the same thing as this from Damore's memo? > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Edit: ebbv beat me to it

That's still twisting his argument. I've read an article that argued that while highly intelligent women are equally capable of doing STEM, they're _more_ capable/interested with regards to interpersonal relationships, so they're more likely to go into fields like medicine, politics, marketing etc.

Maybe a sign of issues in the field is that people hiring undervalue interpersonal skills/relationships and what it means to be "capable," which I do think is a flaw in Damore's original memo.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#489

Post by [deleted] »

dominotw wrote: post #474
vowelless wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned, I don't disparage "right wing". I actually enjoy Joe Rogans podcast, and also Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today (individualism vs. collectivism, equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, etc). But AFAIK, damore never came to the young Turks, Chapo trap house, which are leftist podcasts. I could be wrong.

GP is asking you how you concluded that Joe Rogan is right wing podcast.

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#490

Post by bertil »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

Stupid question, just to get a sense of the context of your testimony: are you working for Google or a similarly prestigious organisation? I can certainly expect “a "Software Engineer" who can't write a SQL statement” in some of the company I worked for a decade ago but I’d be confused to see those at Google. I saw one at Facebook (middle-aged white male) but he left the company after ten days and anyone’s reaction was a really confused: “How did he…?”
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