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European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

europa.eu

481–490 of 702 posts

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#481

I might be in a minority here and I'll probably get down voted but this result scares me... and I used to be CTO one of those competing price comparison sites that show up lower in the results so if anyone should agree it should be me. While it made me angry when Google put their results above ours, I never questioned that they had a right to do that. It is their website. They are not a utility. At what point does a…

1) Google has a monopoly on "searching" the internet.

2) Their search algorithm ranks google products at the top of the results.

3) They cannot prove that their products are being held to the same standards as everyone else, because the algorithm they use to rank results is not public.

I think Google could have any two of these, without being in anti-trust domain.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Damn, I hate this trend of making you comments appear more controversial. I take it as a way of saying "this will probably be a controversial opinion here, but..." which is totally fine.

It's a good way to preemptively color the reader's perception of your comment. Makes you seem more reasonable and knowledgeable when you seemingly recognize the controversial nature of what you're saying, even if it isn't actually that controversial at all. It's a commonly-seen tactic on reddit.

Which this place is becoming. Where should I migrate to?

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#483
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applying this line of reasoning, do you disagree with the EU ruling about browser choice that Microsoft had to comply with?

What line of reasoning? I don't think irremovable Desktop Apps and Websites are comparable or that they should be sanctioned the same way. It didn't have to be a ballot box but I think users should be able to decide what default browser they want to use on first use. I'd prefer to only be install what browsers I want to use. IMO Microsoft is just as hostile now, I can't uninstall Edge from Windows 10, I keep getting…

> I need to use my spam hotmail account to log into Windows 10, I tried using a local account but it broke everywhere that launched a Sign Up page which crashed after 1s of an empty screen, which I needed in order to get the latest version of WSL with the bug fix I needed.

You're lying. You don't need a hotmail account to do any of that.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#484
Seems like a lot of non-lawyers are learning how competition law works and very upset that it also applies to tech. This thread, unfortunately, contains a very low-level discussion regarding what's going on because it is premised upon whether or not competition law has merit in the first place, rather than whether or not it should apply in this specific instance. This is understandable, because most people here don't actually understand the competition framework or how its various moving parts work, either in principle or in practice.

Google has enough lawyers to know that its internal policy was at risk of triggering competition oversight. If it didn't, it has a horrendously inept legal and regulatory risk compliance structure in place.

As a point, in competition cases, companies will generally try to bite off more than they know the regulators will allow, then use that action to shift the goalposts to negotiate better boundaries for their practices or acquisitions than they would have otherwise obtained.[1]

This is what Google has done. Only most people don't see it because their main competitive advantage hasn't' been in easily analysed assets like high-margin factories or efficient logistics operations. Our language of business is not well structured for discussing the competitive advantage Google has acquired by repeatedly leveraging their search engine into other markets. So we ignore it.

Contrary to what people are saying, it is very clear where the 'line' was crossed from the competition perspective. Google has crossed that line multiple times in the past and gotten away free. It is more shocking, from a competition perspective, that they haven't been hit in the past.

___

[1] To explain the footnoted paragraph further: companies will offer to buy competitors that would bring it well past the market dominance high-water mark (different countries' legislation use different terminology to denote this point, but as a rule of thumb when you hit 40-50% of a given market, competition concerns arise). Companies then apply for regulator blessing for the entire acquisition knowing they won't get it. The hope is that the regulator will allow them to try to and keep all of the high-margin, high-value 'crown jewels' and make a show of disposing of underperforming assets. Doing this allows regulators the ability to say they exercised effective oversight, while the company is able to point to their balance sheet's performance over their competitors. Obtaining this advantage then allows them to raise at lower rates and fund activities to buy market share then rely on organic growth (which regulators don't take action against) to crush their opponents. This is a very standard market consolidation playbook for a player in the market.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#485
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re 2. Or one which only looks mutually beneficial, but only benefits Google in reality.

Can you give an unbiased concrete example (eg. tainted baby formula, collapsed bridge, corrupted hard drive from virus) of something that has benefited google to the direct harm of one of it's users? The biggest argument I've seen is that people don't like that they aggregate the data you give to them.

AMP. This is entirely what the AMP argument has been all about.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#486
post #475

This is going to sound a bit conspiracy theory but here goes... I was looking at the highlights of the EU competition commission[0]. Is it just me or is there a theme (with a few exceptions) that runs something like: + Large US company XXX gets anti-trust fine. + EU company gets state aid approved. + rinse and repeat Maybe it's just a coincidence but I wonder what the P&L for the Competition Commission looks like giv…

Considering how much tax dodging the US companies engage in, I'm not sure that would be unfair if it was true.

Exactly.

Many opinions here are the "market will solve everything" american way. But what many people fail to mention is how american corps avoid taxes. In my country fb and google are main online services with milions customers yet they pay no taxes.

Its amazing what you can do when you are 2big2fail

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I had no idea that the implementation required you to proxy everything through Google, I thought all you had to do was changing the code. I would never do that.

Theoretically you could of course host your own AMP server, but of course if you're going to have your, say, mobile subdomain you can just as easily make things fast by just sticking to plain old HTML and simple CSS. In reality what happens is that companies trade control for speed on mobile.

I'm so scared of relying on one company for everything.

I personally run my own mail server and use Mail to move all messages to Google Inbox, so that I can use Google's excellent spam filter and email grouping while still keeping control over my email.

I use both Google Photos and iCloud Photos.

If I had to have Google proxy my website, I would at least give my visitors a CNAME instead of Google's URL, to avoid getting locked in into the technology.

I know a lot of people that would be totally screwed if Google closed their account for some reason: no more email, contacts, photos, etc. etc.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#488

The thing is, personally I prefer getting integrated results from Google's other search services when I do a Google search. I like getting Google Maps results when I search for a location, I like getting Google Flights results etc. When I do a Google search I am not just using it as a simple website search. I want it to use it to search the whole Google suite of services. If they are forced to stop doing this it will…

Anecdotal experience: I switched browsers on android because android's default browser kept opening map links in google map. Firefox mobile didn't seem to suffer from that issue. While google's tight integration lead to a positive experience for you, it lead to a very poor experience for myself or others who want to use something not google. I'm not asking for the EUC to fine google, I'm asking for choice.

Additional bonus, Firefox Android has extensions, so you can get uBlock Origin and such :)

I have a similar problem with Google Maps. I don't want it tracking my location history to my Google Account (integration I never asked for), but when I disable this it even refuses to remember my search history for addresses and such (no reason that needs cloud storage except Google wanting to get their hands on this info). Therefore I most often use Open Streetmaps with Maps.me. Which has other advantages too, so it's not all bad.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#489
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're returning relevant information Customers are searching for. If it wasn't relevant or useful people would use a different Service they'd deem more valuable to them. A major part of Google's simplicity is they provide a single search box you can use to search for anything, I don't want to have to go to 100 different sites to search for 100 different things.

"They're returning relevant information Customers are searching for." They were really not. For every search you assume you will be given the more popular matches, what they were doing was purposefully bypassing their own algorithm to their advantage, giving doctored results. There wouldn't have been any problem if they promoted their service making it clear it was not part of the search results. EDIT: For a countere…

> what they were doing was purposefully bypassing their own algorithm to their advantage, giving doctored results

Where did you get this from?

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#490
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to your question is given by the EC decision: > There are also high barriers to entry in these markets, in part because of network effects: the more consumers use a search engine, the more attractive it becomes to advertisers. The profits generated can then be used to attract even more consumers. Similarly, the data a search engine gathers about consumers can in turn be used to improve results. Simply put,…

Step 1: "the more consumers use a search engine" --> presumably because said consumers like the product (search engine) Step 2: "more attractive to advertisers" Step 3: "profits generated can then be used to attract even more consumers" Wait, why were consumers attracted by the product (search engine) in the 1st step, but were convinced by the profits in the 3rd step?

Because they're a US company, duh.

Just like Toyota in the unintended acceleration problem was quickly found guilty of not being GM or Ford.

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