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What I Heard from Trump Supporters

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#481

Post by lsh123 »

The most worrisome in all the notes for me is this sentence:

Almost everyone I asked was willing to talk to me, but almost none of them wanted me to use their names—even people from very red states were worried about getting “targeted by those people in Silicon Valley if they knew I voted for him”.

People are afraid to talk about their views openly. I think this is really bad. Even here in the HN comments I saw a few people saying basically that "it is not worth discussing anything with someone who don't agree with me". This is really really really bad. If there is one thing I wish will change for the next election is that both sides would listen more to the other side (even if they strongly disagree).

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#483

Post by yamaneko »

darkmouth wrote: post #164
benbenolson wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what the current top comment (by shklnrj) is talking about, and is one of the major reasons that Trump got elected. darkmouth here is doubling down on the exact same strategy that lead many away from liberalism this election cycle.

and you're suggesting we shut up and keep quiet when we KNOW we are RIGHT? That is not going to happen. Submitting to tantrums only makes those people get stronger.

Facing tantrums with tantrums only makes both sides more angry. In general, if I confront someone in a rude way, it is more probable that the other person will get defensive and the discussion derails.

Don't get me wrong, it's not about being quiet either, but I think there are better ways of exposing your point of view¹. Before I became more left-aligned, I had to read several articles and listen a lot, but the tone wasn't abrasive as in most discussions. (Sometimes it was and it made me get defensive, but I knew from past experience that maybe I was wrong again, then I had to listen to see their point. After a few days, it clicked and I started understanding it better).

Of course, if someone doesn't want to be helped, it's not you who is going to change it. But, I think the 'adversary' is always more compelling to learn if you express it in a sincere way, more neutral/polite instead of attacking. And you will learn too.

¹Just to be clear, I'm talking about discussions on the Internet or in person.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#484

Post by davidw »

leesalminen wrote: post #423
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but that market demand exists because they are outside the law. Keeping illegal immigrants here allows a permanent underclass which can be abused by companies in ways that American citizens can't. It allows a race to the bottom where only companies which hire illegal immigrants can lower the cost of their product to a competitive level. The only way to end this cycle is to stop allowing illegal immigrants to w…

So, in a way our President is actually standing up to the corporations and fighting for human rights?

Probably not. Here's one way it could easily play out:

There's still demand for those people, and so they'll keep coming (and especially if by various means we contribute to wrecking the Mexican economy!), but they'll be pushed further towards the margins of society, and will be easier to exploit.

Look at this, for instance: http://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/2017/02/15/ice-detains... - woman takes domestic violence to the courts, but gets detained herself. What will the next woman to be beaten or raped do? Probably not go to the cops.

edit also: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/mexico-immigr...

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#485

Post by austenallred »

hkmurakami wrote: post #410
rdl wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't always like this. Silicon Valley was a lot more diverse/tolerant in the first dotcom boom and until ~2006 or so than since. It really went off the deep end circa the Brendan Eich incident (2014), and then the most recent Presidential election cycle. The "Ex-communicate Peter Thiel" movement was the point of no return, and when I decided to flee permanently. It doesn't seem to be as bad even in other equally…

Both the Eich and Thiel situations were downright appalling in how they mirrored the exact kind of Witch hunt and ostracizing that liberalism historically and morally should be against. The fact that people didn't seem to grasp the hypocrisy and danger of their actions made it even more chilling.

That people openly suggested firing anyone who voted for Trump was pretty shocking to me (despite the fact that I didn't vote for him)

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#486

Post by yestoallthat »

throwaway713 wrote: post #238
Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

As someone who frequently plays devil's advocate, I'll usually argue the opposite viewpoint of the person I'm speaking with just to see how they think, and I've found there are two types of people: those who become emotional and angry, and those who engage in logical debate. This seems to be more of a personality trait than a political thing.

I think the difference is obedience (to whatever world view exuding from whatever real or imagined authority figures) and drawing self worth (or, more realistically, constant background fear) from that, and being grounded as a person and having opinions about things which one is free to re-inspect and change without losing anything. It doesn't matter so much what people think but why they think it, or rather, if they think or parrot it.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#487

Post by davidw »

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #336
davidw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are illegal because the system is so broken. There's a market demand for those people, and they're moving here to work, by and large. Just because something is set in law does not make it morally right.

> They are illegal because the system is so broken. There's a market demand for those people, and they're moving here to work, by and large. > Just because something is set in law does not make it morally right. ...and neither does "the market."

No, but if you have a huge market demand for something, and make it illegal... that demand will still get filled, but cause all kinds of other problems:

Exhibit A: the "war on drugs".

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#488

Post by dlp211 »

CM30 wrote: post #154
sxcurry wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing.

How about that it's not right to beat someone up because of their political views? Or that freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech just as much as that which you agree with? Those are now unpopular, contrarian views at universities and what not.

I agree with your former argument/question, but this applies to a small fraction of people on both sides, but unfortunately causes us to paint with a broad brush.

As to free speech, I assume you are talking about people like Milo, to which I will say that he has never had his free speech violated. Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#489

Post by jenkstom »

I and my family were forced off of road because of an Obama sticker on the back. Don't tell me Trump supporters are any more tolerant than that. Maybe where they are a minority, sure, but in the red states there is plenty of straight up crazy.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#490

Post by mrkurt »

mjmsmith wrote: post #450

What another guy heard from Trump supporters: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a53275/trump-melbourne-...

These are both important. I think the Esquire take (figure out what the people who go to rally's are after) has more coverage than Sam's, but the tension is super fascinating.

Most people I know who voted for Trump are unsettled by the extreme populist rhetoric. You can see it in the answer's Sam got. They tend to discount what they hear on TV covers when they're justifying a stance, either because the media is biased, or because every candidate has unpleasant supporters, etc.

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