Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

huffingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 490 posts

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#481

Post by Chris2048 »

strainer wrote: post #480
Chris2048 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You even alluded to calculus with "dS(t)/dt" yes, to allude to a relationship to rate , hence reducing one form of ambiguity, (but not all possible ambiguities!). non-clarity, and purposeful ambiguity is different. Also, be specific on one aspect (in this the on the point I was trying to make) and general else where (any other unrelated economic stuff) is not uncommon or inconsistent.

Ok if youre going stick with this its fine - its clear, that you use mathematical expressions to allude to things, not to define them. And that you find it not uncommon or inconsistent to base observations on clearly insufficient mathematical expressions, appealing to ambiguity in your math to carry such technique.

Yes, you brought it up.

> mathematical expressions to allude to things

I spelled out the things I wanted to explicitly.

> clearly insufficient mathematical expressions

I don't think that's the case. I think you're inventing a problem.

> appealing to ambiguity in your math to carry such technique.

"carry", "appeal"? Again, the aim is not to provide a full economic model. If some parts are general (not merely ambiguous) and other parts specific, it is not because I am missing specificity in the general parts, but because those parts are not my focus.

If you are going to throw around "insufficient" you'll have to define: insufficient for what?

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#482

Post by lowbloodsugar »

sulam wrote: post #477
lowbloodsugar wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud you for paying H1B the same as your other employees. I was an H1B myself in SV. My experience, and those of my peers, differs greatly from your experience. To answer some of your points here: > It is very hard to compare a Netflix offer to a pre-IPO Twitter offer except in hindsight. No, its not hard. There's overwhelming evidence that the expected future value of a pre-IPO start-up is zero. Its a lottery.…

Your last example is an instance of the other class of employer I mentioned. They are clearly abusing the system. I would love for the H1-B to be fixed so that they aren't able to take advantage, although I think the law of unintended consequences may well kick in. The proximate thing that would do for the H1-Bs I've known is make it so that they aren't sweating bullets to see if they got lucky in the lottery. Re: fu…

And here's Lloyd [0]. Lloyd won $5m. Does Lloyd's experience inform us about buying lottery tickets any more or less than Bob's? Is Bob representative?

Hey, look, if you can get a full salary, benefits and stock, then you're not losing anything. But anyone who sacrifices salary in the expectation that the stock options are going to be bigger is just playing the lottery.

[0] http://www.calottery.com/media/press-releases/press-release?...

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#483

Post by lern_too_spel »

davidf18 wrote: post #439
mavelikara wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clinton proposed automatically giving H1Bs a green card, When? Her proposal, as reported in the media was, "'staple' green cards on STEM grads' diplomas". Was there other proposal she made specifically addressing H-1Bs?

> Her proposal, as reported in the media was, "'staple' green cards on STEM grads' diplomas". Well, that's a terrible idea if she said that. She apparently wanted to depress STEM wages in the US and put Americans STEM workers, who worked very hard for their degrees and skill out of work. The green card, H1-B should only be given for STEM jobs for which there is no American. So Clinton wanted to depress STEM wages and…

It does the exact opposite by making employers pay at least as much for an H1B as for an equivalent local worker. You're suggesting that they not even be allowed into the country, which would incentivize American companies to set up their campuses in other countries that take a more liberal view to immigration.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#484

Post by strainer »

Chris2048 wrote: post #481
strainer wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok if youre going stick with this its fine - its clear, that you use mathematical expressions to allude to things, not to define them. And that you find it not uncommon or inconsistent to base observations on clearly insufficient mathematical expressions, appealing to ambiguity in your math to carry such technique.

Yes, you brought it up. > mathematical expressions to allude to things I spelled out the things I wanted to explicitly. > clearly insufficient mathematical expressions I don't think that's the case. I think you're inventing a problem. > appealing to ambiguity in your math to carry such technique. "carry", "appeal"? Again, the aim is not to provide a full economic model. If some parts are general (not merely ambiguous…

This...

Assume dSal_dt = proportion * f(avg_lab_demand - avg_lab_supply)

...really is insufficient to conclude this:

"Now, if you keep topping up supply from overseas, salary never increases as much as it might, as such it is limited - as such, salary rate increase is also capped; and it's not employees ... "

It was just used as a gesture regardless of its actual mathematical meaning. "Assume" could honestly have been replaced with: "Resolve a general sense of this iffy expression which supports the following claims:"

Math is not meant to be treated as an ambiguous medium, it is intended to explicate analogies and to manipulate them accurately. I understand you feel that is unreasonable, but it is what math is developed in order to be capable of and what it is used properly for.

good speed with it.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#485

Post by Chris2048 »

strainer wrote: post #484
Chris2048 wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you brought it up. > mathematical expressions to allude to things I spelled out the things I wanted to explicitly. > clearly insufficient mathematical expressions I don't think that's the case. I think you're inventing a problem. > appealing to ambiguity in your math to carry such technique. "carry", "appeal"? Again, the aim is not to provide a full economic model. If some parts are general (not merely ambiguous…

This... Assume dSal_dt = proportion * f(avg_lab_demand - avg_lab_supply) ...really is insufficient to conclude this: "Now, if you keep topping up supply from overseas, salary never increases as much as it might, as such it is limited - as such, salary rate increase is also capped; and it's not employees ... " It was just used as a gesture regardless of its actual mathematical meaning. "Assume" could honestly have bee…

No it isn't, it demonstrates that exact relationship.

> I understand you feel that is unreasonable

You misunderstand, I don't agree with you; I'm not commenting on "the proper use of math" because I disagree with some of your base accusations. I believe you are just passive-aggressively badgering me over nothing.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#486

Post by strainer »

Chris2048 wrote: post #485
strainer wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... Assume dSal_dt = proportion * f(avg_lab_demand - avg_lab_supply) ...really is insufficient to conclude this: "Now, if you keep topping up supply from overseas, salary never increases as much as it might, as such it is limited - as such, salary rate increase is also capped; and it's not employees ... " It was just used as a gesture regardless of its actual mathematical meaning. "Assume" could honestly have bee…

No it isn't, it demonstrates that exact relationship. > I understand you feel that is unreasonable You misunderstand, I don't agree with you; I'm not commenting on "the proper use of math" because I disagree with some of your base accusations. I believe you are just passive-aggressively badgering me over nothing.

"it demonstrates that exact relationship."

It doesnt "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship, because you put an anonymous function in it! All it really demonstrated is you were considering salary as preposterously simple function of labour supply with no other parameters.

You basically just wont be told that your math was very blatantly bad, resorting to accustations of unreasonable complaint and now passive aggressive badgering.

How many careful replies have i composed to try and gently explain to you that you should check your use of math? If you dont wish to feel "badgered" just get it and/or quit replying.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#487

Post by Chris2048 »

strainer wrote: post #486
Chris2048 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't, it demonstrates that exact relationship. > I understand you feel that is unreasonable You misunderstand, I don't agree with you; I'm not commenting on "the proper use of math" because I disagree with some of your base accusations. I believe you are just passive-aggressively badgering me over nothing.

"it demonstrates that exact relationship." It doesnt "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship, because you put an anonymous function in it! All it really demonstrated is you were considering salary as preposterously simple function of labour supply with no other parameters. You basically just wont be told that your math was very blatantly bad, resorting to accustations of unreasonable complaint and now passive aggressive…

> considering salary as preposterously simple function of labor supply with no other parameters.

Or it's not a complete model of the many possible parameters relevant in the economy. "preposterously simple" needs qualification on why it is ""preposterous" given IT IS NOT A COMPLETE ECONOMIC MODEL.

> It doesn't "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship

It demonstrates the rate of salary proportional to some function of the difference in supply and demand. If there are multiple factors involved in determining a value, I can still represent the nature of the relationship a single factor has with that value. It's "that-exact relationship", not "that exact-relationship".

I won't be told, because you're wrong. I don't "feel" badgered, I am badgered.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#488

Post by strainer »

Chris2048 wrote: post #487
strainer wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it demonstrates that exact relationship." It doesnt "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship, because you put an anonymous function in it! All it really demonstrated is you were considering salary as preposterously simple function of labour supply with no other parameters. You basically just wont be told that your math was very blatantly bad, resorting to accustations of unreasonable complaint and now passive aggressive…

> considering salary as preposterously simple function of labor supply with no other parameters. Or it's not a complete model of the many possible parameters relevant in the economy. "preposterously simple" needs qualification on why it is ""preposterous" given IT IS NOT A COMPLETE ECONOMIC MODEL. > It doesn't "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship It demonstrates the rate of salary proportional to some function of the…

"Or it's not a complete model of the many possible parameters relevant in the economy. "

Your formula contained TWO terms, salary and labour scarcity. That was the entire economic model which was to be "assumed"

"Ladies and gentlemen assume salary is a simple function of labour scarcity. Now, these ideas follow..."

"What are you complaining about? How unreasonable. I dont like these replies. Stop badgering me!"

Stop complaining. I dont have to be the bigger man and stop replying. Now theres an opportunity.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#489

Post by Chris2048 »

strainer wrote: post #488
Chris2048 wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> considering salary as preposterously simple function of labor supply with no other parameters. Or it's not a complete model of the many possible parameters relevant in the economy. "preposterously simple" needs qualification on why it is ""preposterous" given IT IS NOT A COMPLETE ECONOMIC MODEL. > It doesn't "demonstrate" ANY exact relationship It demonstrates the rate of salary proportional to some function of the…

"Or it's not a complete model of the many possible parameters relevant in the economy. " Your formula contained TWO terms, salary and labour scarcity. That was the entire economic model which was to be "assumed" "Ladies and gentlemen assume salary is a simple function of labour scarcity. Now, these ideas follow..." "What are you complaining about? How unreasonable. I dont like these replies. Stop badgering me!" Stop…

I've explained enough.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#490

Post by sulam »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #482
sulam wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last example is an instance of the other class of employer I mentioned. They are clearly abusing the system. I would love for the H1-B to be fixed so that they aren't able to take advantage, although I think the law of unintended consequences may well kick in. The proximate thing that would do for the H1-Bs I've known is make it so that they aren't sweating bullets to see if they got lucky in the lottery. Re: fu…

And here's Lloyd [0]. Lloyd won $5m. Does Lloyd's experience inform us about buying lottery tickets any more or less than Bob's? Is Bob representative? Hey, look, if you can get a full salary, benefits and stock, then you're not losing anything. But anyone who sacrifices salary in the expectation that the stock options are going to be bigger is just playing the lottery. [0] http://www.calottery.com/media/press-releas…

My point is simply calculating expected value. If you can't actually do that calculation, there are a lot of activities you should stay away from. The lottery, poker, and startups all immediately come to mind. You may also want to reconsider getting in a car or crossing the street. Low probability of an event multiplied by a large outcome is not zero. It may be low (I do get in cars and cross the street) but people do regularly win the lottery, make money from stock, hit a straight on the river, and get hit by cars.
Post reply on HN