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A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

visa.lafrenchtech.com

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Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#481

Post by PaulHoule »

potatoyogurt wrote: post #301
PaulHoule wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language lessons in school could be the least effective way to learn a a language. If you are own the ground using it, it is amazing how fast you can learn.

Language lessons are good at giving you the grammatical foundation you need to become literate. I agree that they're pretty bad for fluency in spoken language. To be fair, though, language classes are usually 3-5 hours per week, and you won't become fluent if you move to France or somewhere and only spend 3-5 hours per week trying to speak the language.

Motivations matter too.

I took three years of German in high school and a semester in college. I could never get the der/die/das stuff to stick. Later on I started reading German fiction for fun and then I got frustrated because I know the verb but not who did what to whom and then I got a lot better in the grammatical agreement area quickly.

I have gone through many years of on and off anime fandom without formal schooling. When I do pick up a book about the Japanese language, I often think "that is obvious" or alternately realized I'd heard the phrase many times without understanding it.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#482

Post by cdavid »

lend000 wrote: post #412
renaudg wrote: post #330

Raw salary comparisons miss the point : you can't really compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all…

France's pension system (for public employees in particular) is in deep trouble, as our many of its other 'free lunch' policies. Its debt is looking similar to Greece shortly before '09. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gd...

FWIW, that's lower than the US, and not that much higher than the UK (and we don't really know what is a good debt/gdp ratio).

Also, those numbers are not directly comparable (e.g. in Germany a lot of what used to be counted as gvt is now private: the work done is the same, as are the obligations, but it appears in a different "bucket").

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#483

Post by cdavid »

user5994461 wrote: post #447
vmarsy wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People mention the lack of VC, infrastructure, tax or other issues, but to me the biggest problem is the lack of talent. I would say that in terms of business skills, there's a surplus of "salesmen" type of founders, but technical founders are missing. France engineers are very smart and engineering school are among the best, but unfortunately I find their curriculum still oriented towards hard engineering (civil, ae…

The French engineering talent is top notch... but you'll never see it. Go to a graduation ceremony at a top school (note: it's delayed 1-2 years after graduation) and you'll learn that the top 10% have ALL left the country, no exception. (I'm talking about the top in terms of technical abilities, entrepreneurship and/or skills that are valuable to execute , not necessarily school grades).

I will ask citation on that one, as that's not my experience at all.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#484

Post by briandear »

renaudg wrote: post #425

Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top not…

$130k in the US with paid health insurance, 2-4 weeks of vacation and dramatically lower taxes, vs. $50k in France with more 'benefits' and higher taxes.. Are those extra benefits worth $80k per year?

Social charges really crush the ability for French companies to compete. Then with CDIs making it almost impossible to fire anyone, it results in a far less liquid job market. Now there's even talk of actually forcing men to take paternity leave in the name of reducing inequality between men and women in the workplace. I live in France and love it for the most part, but other than my tiny hotel business on the side, I would never consider starting a company here. Even filing the paperwork to form an SAS is arduous. I can incorporate in the US in less than a day and have a bank account opened the next day. In France, even something as simple as getting business-class internet requires a SIRET number for no logical reason. I could offer to pay €1000 per month and without some piece of paper saying you're a business, you can't even get a business phone line.

However one really important area that ought not be missed is the amazing pre-k (free or nearly free) childcare. If I were in the US, that would amount to $20k+ per year (I have 3 kids.) That is definitely a plus.

In France, you have less disposable income than you would in the US (even after benefits are counted,) however, France does have a great lifestyle if you can afford it. Though I can't say much for Paris -- expensive, somewhat dirty, a dreadful public transport system (try taking kids with strollers on the metro,) along with a very high cost of living and you have a pretty bad place to raise a family. Toulouse, Grenoble, Lyon, Avignon on the other hand -- really great places!

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#485

Post by di4na »

cdavid wrote: post #483
user5994461 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French engineering talent is top notch... but you'll never see it. Go to a graduation ceremony at a top school (note: it's delayed 1-2 years after graduation) and you'll learn that the top 10% have ALL left the country, no exception. (I'm talking about the top in terms of technical abilities, entrepreneurship and/or skills that are valuable to execute , not necessarily school grades).

I will ask citation on that one, as that's not my experience at all.

I can not find a quote because the numbers are hidden.

But i am in an engineering school, i am in the top 10%, and it is true.

There was even a note from the ministry this year asking engineering school to stop the mandatory semester in a foreign university for all engineering student, to try to reduce the drain.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#486

Post by di4na »

coredog64 wrote: post #251
LunaSea wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would still pick Berlin or Amsterdam over France. Maybe even Sweden or Finland because of the average English language level spoken in those countries even though the startup scene there is smaller than Paris.

France, or Paris? The joke my former (Parisian) co-worker used to tell was that he missed everything about Paris except the Parisians. I've heard nice things about Lyon: Largish city, easily accessible, and not full of Parisians.

and bad internet.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#487

Post by CalRobert »

intralizee wrote: post #223
chrisper wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, a lot of CS people in the US seem to really love the US and say stuff like "it sucks not to be in the US." They usually mention how they can afford everything since they make so much money and how they prefer to work 600 hours a week instead of having forced days off and that health care through Employer is so much better than through government. Admittedly, this was on Reddit, which is just a huge echo cha…

I believe a lot of tech people are the type that prefer a computer as everything around them is madness in disguise. A lot of people I know over time build mental walls that resemble what the US culture respects and pushes on everyone. Work is #1 and money is everything. I see people that never use their vacation days and feel bad when they do! I believe if there was more focus on philosophy teachings in the US, thin…

When I worked in tech in the US, I got three or four weeks off. This was considered an incredible degree of largess on the part of my employers. Unfortunately, though, my partner generally got only a week off per year (she works in museums, a tough industry).

In Europe we both get a month off every year by law, which means we can both enjoy it. My salary is lower, but hers is higher. In general, we find we have more fun this way.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#488

Post by di4na »

jeandejean wrote: post #372
EduardoBautista wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the salaries so much lower? Is it lack of funding or do employers just don't want to pay more?

It is mostly because of the social welfare that is funded massively over salaries extortion. Take a random 60k€ salary for a senior software engineer in Paris, the employer is paying at least the same amount of taxes on top of that, making the cost for the company up to 120k€. It is not that far away from some foreign salaries for the same position, except in other countries highly skilled workers are not that massiv…

Add to that the administrative environment. One to two months to incorporate, really complex stuff to implement when pass the 20 then 50 employees bar, etc etc.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#490

Post by e28eta »

balfirevic wrote: post #431
fancy_pantser wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to use round numbers, here is a breakdown for a single person making $120k/yr in California at a typical tech company. Monthly gross income: $10000 Federal tax $1494 Medicare $144 Social Security $616 CA Income Tax $751 CA Disability $89 Pretax deductions: Medical $56 Dental $5 Vision $2 Monthly take-home amount: $6843 (68.4% of gross)

> Just to use round numbers, here is a breakdown for a single person making $120k/yr in California at a typical tech company. Is that total cost to employer for that employee? Or are there additional expenses that are not considered part of employee gross income but instead fall under "employer pays for them" category?

Yes, there are taxes paid by the employer. I dislike infographics, but the text at the bottom breaks it down also:

https://framework.gusto.com/the-true-cost-to-hire-an-employe...

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