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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#481

Post by eru »

hx87 wrote: post #225
ubernostrum wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, this supply and demand thing. We keep hearing from large tech companies that there's a crisis -- a massive shortage of qualified software engineers, to such a degree that they won't be able to operate at all if they can't raise the H1-B quotas and import more people to fill all the jobs currently going unfilled. If that truly is the case, then supply and demand would tell us that currently engineers are underpaid…

A similar issue exists with respect to illegal immigration and low-pay, low-status jobs such as crop picking, meat-packing, and janitorial services: if there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job at prevailing wages, then aren't prevailing wages too low? Sure, my tomatoes would cost more and cleaning services might be 200% more expensive, but that's just the cost of doing business.

But who would be served by that?

With immigration Americans get cheaper tomatoes and unAmericans get comparatively better jobs. It's a win-win.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#482

Post by darksim905 »

bumbledraven wrote: post #464
matthewowen wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like my earlier comment has been misconstrued as "if your work generates $1MM in profit than it should be rewarded with $0.999MM in salary". That's not what I'm attempting to say at all. Assessing value is definitely more complex than that. Additionally, yeah, it's true, competitors might not be able to realize the same value in the same space. Competitive advantages exist. Spreads between value and salaries w…

The labor theory of value has been refuted. In a market economy, prices (including the price of labor, i.e. salaries) are set by supply and demand.

Which is bullshit, all the way around :)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#483

Post by [deleted] »

mistaken wrote: post #478
stygiansonic wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry that you had to go through this. I agree that it's intrusive and really shouldn't be tolerated. A while ago, I was in the middle of the job interview process for a company. Having read some rudimentary background on salary negotiation, I was somewhat prepared for how to deflect the "how much are you making?" question. The next interview was a technical interview, so I wasn't too focused on this aspect of th…

The correct answer to "how much are you making?" is I guess "how much are you willing to pay?"

[deleted]

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#484

Post by eru »

idrios wrote: post #207
tacostakohashi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these things are true. However, there is another input into supply side, and that's alternatives to employment like starting a company. Any employees that really create much more value than their salary can and will just leave and start their own company, where they get to set their own salary. By doing so, they'll also be leaving the pool of employees, and potentially hiring others too (reducing supply, incre…

Right? So many people are looking at company overhead as burdensome, but how are you going to cash in on the $1.5 million in value that you create if you don't have sales and marketing people to get your product out there? How do you even know it's worth $1.5 million if you haven't done market research? It's not just overhead, it's a highly efficient system.

Highly efficient or not depends on the actual system, ie company. Some companies aren't all that efficient, and have to painfully learn about that fact when real competition shows up.

(See eg the effects of Aldi on the Australian retail sector.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#485

Post by AceJohnny2 »

r0m4n0 wrote: post #416

I applied and soon after worked as an engineer for a large company that not only asked for my previous compensation but part of the application process involved my employer validating that I actually made what I told them. They worked with a third party to match my figures with W2 statements and/or pay stubs. It was really intrusive. Pay should equate to value, not some silly ladder climb

In California, I was asked by the recruiter what my previous salary was. I gave them a number. Later, the background check requested my W2s. I bristled and stalled, but they were being difficult. I ended up scanning them, whiting-out any numbers relative to salary, and giving them that.

They were satisfied. (That's just a datapoint, N=1)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#486

Post by SubiculumCode »

thinkloop wrote: post #466
andrepd wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean. It's the current system that's messed up, that just by holding money you can create money. It generates all kinds of fucked up inequalities.

Holding money generates nothing, you have to at minimum risk it in a savings account or the index, or for real gains, playing roulette on a start-up.

Yes there is risk...but so much investment is made by those that can afford to risk it..that is the risk of losing the investment is not losing your home and car or being thrown to the street. If risk is defined by surplus money alone then yes, investors take risks, but if you define risk as the chance of losing your livelihood and basic needs? Typing on a keyboard entails more risk.

When the poor takes an investment risk of $1000 they risk more than some elite putting up $1000.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#487

Post by Tideflat »

intrasight wrote: post #261

Are you a star? If not, then you have very little leverage in negotiating compensation. That is true across professions: Rock Star, Sports Star, Sales Star, Surgical Star, you name it. Next ask if stars are made or born. If born, then you're out of luck again - until you are reincarnate. If made, then learn from how others made themselves stars. Like many things in life, it helps to start young, and it often comes do…

Not all markets are superstar markets. Some places the 100th best worker is about just as good as the best worker, like for janitors.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#488

Post by eru »

jondubois wrote: post #393
slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

CEOs and top executives are highly replaceable too (they sure change companies a lot), and yet they command massive salaries. What happened to the laws of supply and demand there? Why do CEOs have to die or retire before the board decides to replace them with someone more competent? How was Steve Ballmer able to stay in charge at Microsoft for so long?? I remember the day Ballmer announced his resignation, MSFT stock…

There's supply and demand, and then there's also principal agent problems. In practice, shareholder capitalism is a lie: companies are run for the benefits of upper management.

(You see some more examples of stories like the Ballmer resignation, when you look at the "Effects of untimely CEO death", eg http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/28/the-effects-of-a-ceos-death-o...)

It's not only rank-and-file employees that have little leverage, average shareholders aren't much better off.

The government can try and make sure to keep barriers to entry low for competitors, and barriers to switching to competitors for employees. Competition keeps companies in line, even when it's executives running the show.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#489

Post by hockley »

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

If you want to get maximum compensation for the value you create, become a founder.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#490

Post by eru »

Frondo wrote: post #268
athenot wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An illustation of that is found in high-end hotels. Beyond the building, it's the value that the cleaning and groundskeeping staff provide which makes the stay great. And yet their pay is not that much higher than their counterparts working for a budget hotel. (As a side-note, that's why I always smile and engage with the staff whenever I can: it's a thankless job, despite being one of the most important.)

That's great! I dig how you treat them with respect and human dignity, that they're not beneath you but working hard, too. I hope you also support their right to unionize wherever that is possible.

How does one follow from the other?

I appreciate that grocers are selling me cheap goods, and that it took hard work to create and supply them. Yet, I don't want them to form a cartel.

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