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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#481

Post by petervandijck »

ClayFerguson wrote: post #415
hnrodey wrote: post #41

I'm going through the interview process this week at two different companies. One of the companies I found through an ad on Stack Overflow whereby they publish two programming "exercises/puzzles" with the opportunity to earn $100 for a correct answer to each puzzle ($200 total for two correct answers). While I spent more than eight hours on both puzzles, I found them to be thought provoking and I learned stuff in the…

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much. Those who are desperate for a job will spend the 8hrs it takes on these silly tests and make it thru the process. Good developers who can take their choice of jobs will just ignore these companies who think they are being clever to require a test, and just move to some other company what is not showing signs tha…

"If an interviewer is not capable of determining my knowledge level by a normal interview" -> So it turns out that mostly, no, you really can't, even though you think you can.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#482

Post by kozukumi »

golergka wrote: post #480
kozukumi wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we can agree on that. However I hope you will also agree with me in that the term "lead" for many things gets thrown around quite easily in the tech world. What annoys me is I often see companies promote an inexperienced (due to age) developer to lead or architect or some other title when they are really not that at all. The company does it to keep the person happy [read: shut them up] with a title rather t…

> However I hope you will also agree with me in that the term "lead" for many things gets thrown around quite easily in the tech world. Hm, actually I haven't seen it. For me, "lead" has a very exact meaning: a developer who is personally responsible for code that developers people write, and has authority appropriate to that responsibility. What else can it mean?

In my experience a lead developer is the primary contact and owner for a specific feature or program. This person should know everything about what they are lead of inside out, they make decisions on design and implementation. They are able to support members of the team that are below them. They can delegate work to those in their team. Review the work done and offer constructive feedback. Communicate their ideas and vision to those below and above them. Present their ideas and concerns to management and stakeholders with ease.

So there are a few buzzwords in that but that is pretty much my personal experience of what a lead developer should be.

I think part of the problem is that there is no industry standard definition of what a lead developer is. It has been my experience it is abused in the ways I mentioned in my previous post.

Again this is all just my personal experience. We are all shaped by our history and though we try and not judge people automatically it will happen from time to time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#483

Post by Lawtonfogle »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #343
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, they also interview older middle-aged candidates but the benchmark tolerance for hoop-jumping is set by the 22-year olds therefore you won't get sympathy from employers about disrupting your life to stay in the running. So basically they find a legal way to discriminate against older candidates?

Any process will fit some candidates better than others.

If I had some process that fit male candidates far better than female candidates, with no clear benefit compared to other processes that had less of a biased fit, would that be a problem?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#484

Post by rurounijones »

acjacobson wrote: post #93
to3m wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty standard in the UK. Your new full-time job is commonly effectively at-will for the first 3 months, and possibly more. See, e.g., http://www.jobsite.co.uk/worklife/probation-periods-19677/

In the US almost all employment is at-will - even if you've worked at a company for years. Probationary periods here typically mean that you are hired as an independent contractor without the benefits that are usually given with a full-time position such as health, dental, and retirement benefits.

Wow, I never knew that was the US terminology. Soany things that didn't really make sense to me have just come into focus.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#485

Post by Flenser »

dang wrote: post #349
mixmastamyk wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be an attack, just noticed that almost every startup about page and video makes it clear that grey hair is not welcome, even at exec team level. Can't delete now.

Ok, but singling out a single company, let alone a specific person, isn't the direction to go. Think of HN threads like a Markov chain: each thing you add biases what others add next. A comment like the one you posted leads to an ugly place.

> Think of HN threads like a Markov chain

Fascinating! It's like Blindsight in reverse.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#486

Post by Altaer »

andrewpe wrote: post #383
Altaer wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this comment doesn't discourage others. I went to a school not known outside of the southeast (and even sometimes not then) and received interviews with many of the top companies (Google, Microsoft, Intel, Amazon, etc), even when I had to check the "other" option for schools.

What school did you go to? If you don't mind me asking.

Georgia College & State University

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#487

Post by Chris2048 »

iolothebard wrote: post #353
Chris2048 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I was saying how refreshing it was to work with a broad array of people in SF vs what I normally work with [white male] in Oklahoma That's a dickish thing to say about white men :-/

How is this a dickish thing to say about white men. I am a white man. Having worked with 1 woman in 15 years in Oklahoma & Texas in development I worked with roughly 60/40 (men to women) developer teams in the Bay Area. Also the broad array of cultures and experiences brings different opinions to the table as well. It wasn't intended as a slant against white men, it was more a happy dividend that I didn't realize I w…

I don't doubt you're a white man, but it makes no difference.

What exactly are you, as an individual, missing in terms of diversity?

> "the broad array of cultures and experiences brings different opinions to the table"

Technical opinions? What does this mean exactly?

This is the bad implication I was talking about, that a group of white males is somehow deficient relative to any group of people.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#488

Post by hnrodey »

coliveira wrote: post #401
seanp2k2 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this is that not everyone has the luxury of that much free time to focus on puzzle-type exercises just to get a foot in the door. This process seems to select for single people with a good amount of free time, which, depending on who you ask, is possibly what they want (if e.g. frequently greater than 40hr work weeks are expected). Edit: thinking more about this, it's good to see that it's a paid puz…

But that is exactly the strategy of the company. They want to select applicants that are young and have enough spare time to solve these puzzles. The fact that the puzzle is paid also makes sure that the small amount of cash is enticing for the applicants (i.e., young developers).

I don't believe that to be their strategy at all. It's a small company with a few devs who don't want to waste their time on junior/mid-level candidates. It's a prescreening process on both sides (me and the employer). I'm early thirties with a wife and two kids so it's not like I have dozens of hours to dedicate to that task.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#489

Post by blakeyrat »

rplst8 wrote: post #443
blakeyrat wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've attempted to use StackOverflow, but by the time I have questions difficult enough to go there they're well above the level that SO is capable of answering. (At least, not without bribing people with rep, which I don't have because I don't use StackOverflow.) So it's pretty useless to me. As for GitHub, I've downloaded libraries from it, but I have a pretty healthy dislike of Git, which is awful, and refuse to us…

Git is awful?

Yes.

I believe usability is the most important trait for a software product, and not only does Git have terrible usability, but its designed in such a way to make it nearly impossible for anybody else to improve its usability. (Although they can improve it's accessibility somewhat-- not everybody is capable of using a CLI interface.)

And it's in a product space (revision control) where the average product's usability is already bottom-of-the-barrel. It's kind of impressive in a way they managed to deepen the barrel a bit.

I'm forced to use (struggle with) Git at work, over my objections. There's no way in hell I'd use it for a hobby project where I have a choice.

I see just sharing my opinion of Git is enough to get voted-down on this site. Oh well. Vote me down. "Person dislikes something popular!" is obviously worthy of derision.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#490

Post by PopsiclePete »

bobbles wrote: post #470
ClayFerguson wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much. Those who are desperate for a job will spend the 8hrs it takes on these silly tests and make it thru the process. Good developers who can take their choice of jobs will just ignore these companies who think they are being clever to require a test, and just move to some other company what is not showing signs tha…

Good developers who can take their choice of jobs *who are just as likely to leave for another company as soon as something better comes along?

Ah, yes, loyalty to a company. Because a modern-day public company would never stab its employees in the back or lay them off if Wall Street was unhappy, right?
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