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Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

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Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I write blog posts from time to time and I do it for pleasure because I enjoy writing about things that interest me and sharing it with others. I do the same thing, but I realized a while back there is a flaw in this model. It means the available creative works—which in turn effectively means the engine of culture—is determined almost entirely by people who are well-off enough to have the free time to do that. I do…

Which significant cultural works have been ad-funded?

Imagine if instead of libraries we made literature accessible to everyone by inserting ads, including "native ads" and product placements in the stories! Egads!

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#482
Brave seems to acknowledge a smaller part of Ted Nelson's "Project Xanadu" [1], where you're paying to access content.

From the Project Xanadu Wikipedia article: "9. Every document can contain a royalty mechanism at any desired degree of granularity to ensure payment on any portion accessed, including virtual copies ("transclusions") of all or part of the document."

Ted's approach is (in my view) also a deduplication effort, as you're citing the original content, tracing it back to its origin by reference.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#483
post #434
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for answering. The point you're bringing up -- the value of being able to function in a world among people with a wide variety of beliefs that conflict with yours when you have no choice and not much power to effect change -- is totally valid. I thought you were extrapolating from that to argue that we shouldn't take action when we can. In the case of Eich, the power happened to be social pressure, and it was…

> I thought you were arguing against that result on the grounds that people should have had more "tolerance for diversity of thought," namely the thought that gay people shoudn't have full marriage equality, with a political action to support it. I do think that people should be able to have abhorrent political ideas, and should be able to take the legal political action they like, without fear of personal retaliatio…

Really appreciate this response. I think you're someone I'd like in person. I agree with most of the above, and have a similar attitude in many ways.

A few points I have key differences on. You'll probably get where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree.

> We have a process, a set of rules and laws for deciding what to do when you and I disagree on what is right for other people. This is what our political system is for; to solve these sorts of disputes in a organized way, without degenerating into war or lynching or what have you. I mean, it doesn't always work... but the political system is the tool for the problem, and while not perfect, it's a pretty good tool. Certainly, it's the best tool we have; people should be encouraged to use it rather than direct action, I think.

Well, back to your point about functioning in the real world, this process has all sorts of backdoors and "corruptions" which probably account for the majority of what actually gets done in the world. Campaign financing, backroom deals, organized community pressure, deals with powerful religious leaders, straight up bribes, and on and on. So losing your job in a public position of a very public company because of public outrage seems not only in keeping with the way the real politics work, but also on the tamer side of those workings. Had he been a rank and file programmer at a consultancy in SF, and somehow lost his job for the same reason, I'd agree that something wrong had happened. I think it's naive, though, even damagingly idealistic, to pretend that those situations don't have important differences.

> I want to acknowledge the question you bring up here, which I read as: "Is this (accepting people who have abhorrent values) actually a good thing? or is it just something I tell myself so that I can function in society? Is this just my rationalization?"

This really gets to the heart of the matter. Don't know about you, in particular, but I do think, in general, that the "I'm so tolerant I tolerate intolerance" position serves those with a bias against conflict and a blindness (often wrought of idealism) about just how steadfastly and unreasonably evil some people are (I'm not talking about Eich here anymore). It's disheartening to me that many who hold this belief are well-intentioned, intelligent, otherwise good people. Because I believe it does have pernicious consequences, in the "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" sense. Or, to take a game-theoretical perspective on it, as long as people can be racist or sexist or otherwise evil with little loss of social power, such people will continue to flourish. And, in an example of the tragedy of the commons, it takes only a very small percentage of them to wreak havoc.

Of course, there are gray areas here about what consititutes evil, but I don't think suppressing equality of basic freedoms is one of them.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#484

Is anyone else concerned about the possibility that if ad blocking on the web becomes widespread enough, we will end up with more ads baked into the content itself? Native advertising, ads burned into images, ads burned in the middle of videos? Thinking selfishly, I would much prefer the status quo, where I can block most ads, but the majority of consumers don't do it. Current ad blocking tech is fine, I'm afraid thi…

Native ads can be, and are today, blocked. Consider those ugly Taboola and Outbrain octoboxes with parasite pictures at the bottom of too many news stories these days. Those are just img in div HTML. But adblockers remove them with HTML rules (Brave will too). In general, you can Greasemonkey anything. Tracker-less first party native ads may be harder to match, but most sites would need tracking to aggregate audience…

I'm pretty sure the parent is talking about burning advertisements into the content, where instead of having separate images (content images, and ad images), they are the same images with advertisements baked into the content images, videos, etc.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the logical extension of that is that you actually get paid to browse, that might be a gamechanger. Keep in mind that the supply side right now ends at the owner of the web property that starts the ball rolling when in fact it actually starts with the person sitting behind the computer looking at the page. So this is a giant cut-out-the-middle-men opportunity and Eich is fairly uniquely positioned to take advan…

We tried the "paid to browse" thing 15-20 years ago. Didn't go so well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_surf

I actually founded a get paid to surf website named PayBar that was the first to make it to market. It was far far smaller than AllAdvantage, and paid quite a bit less(no VC money = bootstrapped before it was cool). It was a sustainable model however until the bubble burst and rates went from $60 CPM to $2 or less CPM. The original founder of AllAdvantage has also tried in the recent past to do it again with a company named AGLOCO. I have a soft spot for the get paid to surf portion of Internet history, but I really don't see it coming back looking anything like it used to.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#487
post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

Hey Brendan,

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 out there. A browser company will obviously be the next google. Advertising makes no sense as a monetization strategy in any capacity. World wide web is an RSS feed and browsers currently only a feedparser not reader.

What new browser will solve

============

* crawlers are being banned and info is mich more protected.

* ads are being blocked more aggressively.

* corpus of sites too massive to provide relevent help as singular units.

* discovery biggest problem on internet again, sites like HN and reddit proof.

How browser makes money

=====

Companies have websites that provide data, browser provides digested and concatenated info to user.

User pays search engine browser for data & processing which is paid to websites.

As good content and info become more fragmented this will be valuable.

* provides data directly (skips results returns info)

* privacy by design, user pays for their own crawl index (basically AWS for data.

* parse and rank data like pandora

Implementation

=========

1. User can get their own corpus and filter it (subset of master)

2. Websites and aggregators sell data to platform (indexed data sets, indexing tools, or a sub corpus)

3. Users can buy or subscribe to these on platform market.

4. User information, parse heuristics, corpus ranking, etc are sent to private db setup for user. Data is requested from browser ==> user processing ==> main corpus (if not cached/get balance of non cached items) Entire ecosystem product. You could build this.

Please do.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

I would also love to see micropayments replace ads. I block nonessential scripts, ads and trackers for privacy, security and speed. I also block ads to avoid mental pollution. To use micropayments, I'd need to fund via Bitcoin or another anonymous method. Even cash in the mail, I suppose. Also, I'd want to buy per article, but I wouldn't want to substantively interrupt the flow of browsing, or think very much about t…

Since your point is privacy, do you know that Bitcoin is the opposite of private and anonymous? The entire ledger is recorded publicly. Granted if you obtain some via cash and are careful not to link your real identify with purchasing the coins, a btc purchase, attaining your goods, etc.; you can get away with using it to an extent, but good luck with modern ad profiling... one mis-step and your profiles are linked.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polygamy is prohibited based on the total number of individuals, gay marriage prohibition is based on the identity of the individuals; it's a critical distinction as far as the protection of individual rights are concerned. So then, it's not discrimination that you oppose. You just want to be the one to decide the target of the discrimination. Love is love, right? I am not projecting or setting up a strawman, I am he…

> So then, it's not discrimination that you oppose. You just want to be the one to decide the target of the discrimination. Love is love, right? This response makes no sense. I didn't say anything about love or about wanting to decide the target of discrimination. If you pay close attention you can grasp my point. Once again, prohibition of polygamy says marriages that consist of more than two individuals are illegal…

This response makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. You just don't like it.

Once again, prohibition of polygamy says marriages that consist of more than two individuals are illegal, it doesn't matter who those individuals are, black, white, man, woman, gay, straight; the law applies evenly to all peoples regardless of who they are.

Just like the prohibition on same sex marriage, the prohibition against polygamous or polyamorous marriage is about the imposition of arbitrary criteria placed upon what does or does not constitute a marriage.

You are fine with one but not the other. You are being hypocritical.

Which didn't happen

Prop 8 was an amendment to the California state constitution. It did happen and the judicial activist wing of the SCOTUS found the flimsiest of excuses to invalidate it.

The legalization of same sex marriage was the agenda behind both of President Obama's supreme court nominations.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who aren't as financially lucky as me don't have that opportunity. I'm not crazy about the idea of living in a world where those people don't get to participate in determining culture. I can't see why those users couldn't publish through a network that charges for access but guarantees a high bar of quality (both content and browsing experience). Think of something like Medium, with opt-in micropayments... p…

Because the current market value of that content appears (for reasons that I personally find pretty bullshit, but I'm not the decision-maker here) to be a pittance. We have, culturally, decided that art is worth very little, and this is the (inevitable? I don't know) result.

Some art costs a lot. The vast majority of art is total garbage by any subjective or objective standard, to the extent that you would have to pay people to take it (negative value). The worth of art is on something like a power law distribution.
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