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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

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Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#481

Post by tim333 »

jacquesm wrote: post #418
tim333 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Islam has nothing to do with this There seems a bit of wishful thinking there. We don't know the details but it seems quite likely Islam does have something to do with this.

It's a fair bet that quite a few or even all of the attackers (but let's stick with probably some) share the Islamic religion. But that does not mean that Islam per se has anything to do with it, what it points to is that religion is a tool that can be used to subvert people into committing acts that they would otherwise likely not engage in, especially when they're young, impressionable, stupid or all of the above.…

I guess it's the style of attack that makes you think Islam. On the other hand if 150 innocents get killed by drones you think USA and by tanks and artillery you might guess Russia or Israel. I'm not a fan of any of the above.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#482

Post by planck01 »

sohaeb wrote: post #342

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe. Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even w…

There is no or hardly any aggression against muslims in the western world, except by other muslims. Most aggression is the other way around.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#483

Post by planck01 »

spopejoy wrote: post #474
brogrammer90 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please just give up religion altogether. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and step into the 21st century.

Religion is never going anywhere, despite your pleas. And in case you forgot, secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history, just last century. US slavery didn't need religion, nor did Apartheid. nor climate change or the atomic bomb. Pacifism is pretty much a religious concept, exclusively so until relatively recent human history. I don't really see how fanatic rationalism has any leg to stand on, rea…

> secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history

They didn't do this 'because of secularism' and that's a big difference. They tried to replace religion with other dogma's en use the religious control for their own purpose. Sure, being a secularist doesn't make you good or non-evil. But without dogmas it will be pretty hard to convince others to blow themselves up for your evil plans.

No one ever committed mass shooting while shouting 'in the name of science', or 'I hate you because I am a securalist.'

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#484

Post by GnwbZHiU »

jacquesm wrote: post #355
bengalister wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks an…

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

Islam may not have anything to do with this. But certainly Muhammad does have something to do with this. If you read his biography, it's full of active violence. Muhammad is totally different from Jesus or Siddhartha Gautama.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#485

Post by GnwbZHiU »

elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

This is about people following CRAZY IDEOLOGY.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#486

Post by GnwbZHiU »

jacquesm wrote: post #427
powertower wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?

Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not h…

Most muslims are peaceful => true. But what if we see it differently? From 100 terrorists, how many of them are muslims?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#488

Post by spopejoy »

planck01 wrote: post #483
spopejoy wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion is never going anywhere, despite your pleas. And in case you forgot, secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history, just last century. US slavery didn't need religion, nor did Apartheid. nor climate change or the atomic bomb. Pacifism is pretty much a religious concept, exclusively so until relatively recent human history. I don't really see how fanatic rationalism has any leg to stand on, rea…

> secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history They didn't do this 'because of secularism' and that's a big difference. They tried to replace religion with other dogma's en use the religious control for their own purpose. Sure, being a secularist doesn't make you good or non-evil. But without dogmas it will be pretty hard to convince others to blow themselves up for your evil plans. No one ever commit…

Ideologies like Nationalism, Fascism are hardly "religion replacements" but genuine products of the Enlightenment. Nobody forced us to wipe out Native Americans, but there was ample rationalization from the West's most sensitive thinkers.

People HAVE committed and OFTEN commit mass shootings while shouting "For the Fatherland" or some other nationalist/racist slogan. Last I checked the body count is higher.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#489

Post by jacquesm »

vacri wrote: post #308
waterlesscloud wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a terrible time to talk about it. Talk about it now and you're going to get emotion-driven reactions, and they aren't going to be what you want. There isn't any time that would be less effective for your goals than right now.

Then no-one should be talking about anything to do with causes or wider issues. This page should then be nothing other than "this is bad, I hope everyone is safe". Instead we're seeing a lot of discussion and a lot of it is good - I think jacquesm in particular is doing a great job in providing context in a level-headed manner. The thing is, just because you start talking about it now doesn't mean you can't talk abou…

Fair enough.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#490

Post by mentat »

jacquesm wrote: post #313
Fezzik wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would ha…

If you go down that route you'll have a hard time explaining 'Jihad John' and the many western youths (including some that are extremely pale skinned) and that suddenly feel the need to join IS or do something else that is profoundly stupid and against their self-interests in every way.

Jihad John gets an excuse to rape random women and kill people. It gets him outside the social structures that would not condone these sorts of aggressive activities. I don't think it's against self-interests for messed up people.
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