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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#471

Post by minikites »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #468
minikites wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I think both of your premises are incorrect. It's not "a few people", it's 50% of the population. It's not "100x" more hate, it a completely different kind of hate, one that is very threatening and personal, attacking people's core identity.

It would be helpful if you explained the relevance of the distinctions you are making rather than simply their existence. Not to mention the relevance of this entire derailing of the underlying conversation. The delete button works just as well for "I hate your core identity" as "I'm looking for a javascript spetznatz".

So when prominent women receive specific death threats (see links below), they're just supposed to delete them? I don't understand why you think this isn't relevant; you said "just grow a thick skin" and I'm attempting to show why it's much more complicated than that.

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/506307716558495744

http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...

>But disappear is exactly what she did next. Andrew "weev" Auernheimer, a well-known provocateur, hacker, and anti-Semite, circulated her home address and Social Security number online. He also made false statements about her being a battered wife and a former prostitute. Not only did Sierra find herself a target for identity theft, but all the people who had threatened to brutally rape and kill her now knew where she lived.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#472

Post by DarkIye »

The Open Source community is young, like the rest of the field of software engineering, and we're still childish and uncivil towards one another, derived from a root of individualism, fed by the promise of a vast and plentiful uncharted territory.

Eventually we will install a system that will protect ourselves from one another. I hope it's a good one.

On a more specific note, PulseAudio sucks and I could care less what Lennart thinks.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#473

Post by DarkIye »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #300
vidarh wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (p.s. the irony of posting such an offensive post by starring out the u in fuck... does he not see the irony?) Linus is fully capable of writing "fuck", as evidenced by e.g. [1]. If he stars it out, assume it is a stylistic choice for that particular message. > then I don't think I'd ever contribute to the LKML. If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Note the context (though I can…

>1 byte reads with sys-calls is a beginner mistake. Kay was/is not a beginner. He also had at that point had repeated complaints from Linus about the quality of his code, and showed no sign of listening. This conflict eventually culminated in Linus making it clear he'd had enough, and will no longer merge code from Kay until he cleans up his act Then this is all Linus had to say. This, exactly, is a great sentence on…

Yeah, me too. We're paid for the lip service - that's our incentive.

Linus has no incentive, financial or social, to be nice to Kay. Chewing him out, however, probably lowers his blood pressure and saves him the time of refactoring his immediate emotional reaction into a polite response, both of which are probably critical metrics to him.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#474

Post by DarkIye »

mcantor wrote: post #364
fl0wenol wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to this, I find myself envious of a person who can dress down another in a flagrant and creative way. If I got dissed in such a hyperbolic way from a boss that was paying me, I would leave. In a situation where I've toiled in a position of importance in a project I work on in my free time, and I screwed up, I think I'd be hurt if I was dismissed lightly and without creative ire. I mean, I want to know that i…

I can't imagine using shame as my primary motivator for improving my work.

You aren't Jewish, are you?

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#475

Post by yummyfajitas »

minikites wrote: post #471
yummyfajitas wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be helpful if you explained the relevance of the distinctions you are making rather than simply their existence. Not to mention the relevance of this entire derailing of the underlying conversation. The delete button works just as well for "I hate your core identity" as "I'm looking for a javascript spetznatz".

So when prominent women receive specific death threats (see links below), they're just supposed to delete them? I don't understand why you think this isn't relevant; you said "just grow a thick skin" and I'm attempting to show why it's much more complicated than that. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/506307716558495744 http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... >But disappear is exactly what sh…

I agree that for serious threats of violence, contacting the police or buying a gun is the correct response. For personal attacks/etc, including ones that "attack your core identity" (whatever that means), I do believe that a thick skin is the right answer. I was implicitly (though not explicitly) describing the latter situation.

You've provided no argument why that isn't the case apart from "won't someone think of the women" (ala Helen Lovejoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg ).

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#476

Post by Dylan16807 »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #451
Dylan16807 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when the quality problems are severe enough to get someone fired from a workplace...

I wasn't aware FOSS projects were compelled to accept code contributions...

The point is that this situation wouldn't exist in a workplace. So talking about what conduct is tolerated there... doesn't really apply.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#477

Post by [deleted] »

chris_wot wrote: post #465
Dylan16807 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when the quality problems are severe enough to get someone fired from a workplace...

Then they get fired, normally after being counselled. They don't get told they are so worthless they should have been aborted.

[deleted]

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#478

Post by EmanueleAina »

peterwwillis wrote: post #469
EmanueleAina wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lennart is producing lots of software that many people find useful to solve real problems. If you don't have these problems you're free to not use them. If your distro maintainer choose to integrate with software produced by Lennart it's because it either solves real problems for them or are simply too dumb to be trusted. In the first case it would be appropriate to trust the decision of qualified people, but if you…

> If you don't have these problems you're free to not use them. Uh, no. Major distributions have adopted his software into the core of their product and it is virtually impossible to substitute it. These distros happen to be the only approved vendors for most major private and public sector commercial software. We're not free to not use it. > you're still free to change distro given the assumed incompetence of your m…

If those major distributions have adopted it they may have had some reasons to do so, isn't it?

So you basically don't trust the maintainers of major distribution, yet you rely on them to provide certificated support (which I guess is the reason why you require approval).

This is a problem in your organization and has really nothing to do with Lennart.

I share the opinion that some people in the kernel team should reconsider the way they express themseves, but if you judge based on who has not been insulted on LKML you'd be left with very few people. Linus himself recently said that he has no strong opinion on systemd and in fact uses it.

I won't discuss your accusation that his software is "the polar opposite model of the operating system he's building it for", it's just your idea of said OS and probably doesn't match what the majority of the developers of said OS think.

We probably read very differently what Lennart said, but I'm quite sure e didn't say "'fuck you' to everyone who develops open source software".

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#479

Post by EmanueleAina »

lmm wrote: post #462
EmanueleAina wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good old "design by commitee", catering for a still-unexisting alternative init system implementing the same interfaces? No, thanks. systemd's interfaces are publicly available and with good enough documentation. Most of them are even declared stable, only the internal ones are obviously free to change. In fact many project are now attempting to reimplement systemd's interfaces as this is how FLOSS work.

You don't have to design by committee, but you do have to publish your interface and commit to keeping it stable. Yes, this slows down development, but it's essential for interoperability. Of course the alternative doesn't exist yet when the interfaces change every week. And systemd's definition of "internal" is rather dubious; to most of us, udev or journald should be separate components that can be swapped out.

Publish the interface and committing to keep them stable is exactly what the systemd team did.

Of course internal interface are not stable and sparsely documented, but they are just that, internal.

Reimplementors should only bother about the public interfaces.

Note that udev does not use systemd internal interfaces and happily runs on non-systemd systems.

Journald can be disabled if you don't want it, or you want to run it on non-systemd?

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#480

Post by tedks »

nwmcsween wrote: post #443
mike_hearn wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again, nobody is forcing you to use systemd. You are upset because you want to upgrade some part of your OS but not have systemd, even though the developers of the part you want to upgrade decided to use it. But you could just .... not upgrade. You could use Debian Stable, or fork the programs that are using systemd to take it out. It's been years since I used desktop Linux, but frankly so far my impression of sy…

You are forced when you cannot use the software you used before.

One of the reasons free software is free is so that you can be insulated from the actions of the developer. There used to be a thousand word processors that were all mutually incompatible, and when the company died you were SOL. Lennart could have gotten hit by a bus, and Avahi would have needed someone else to maintain it. If you want to use Avahi outside of systemd now, you'll need someone else to maintain it. Sometimes these things happen and you have to take them in stride.
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