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Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#471
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the case for nuclear requires one to assume that the competing technologies stop their rapid advance. 1. No, it doesn't 2. Other tech has to actually show this rapid advance, and not be the permanent state of fiction 3. You assume that nuclear is incapable of advances > But making this bet, that renewables will suddenly come up short, that the experience curves will suddenly break their historic trends on the log-l…

> 1. No, it doesn't It does, for the reason I gave. You didn't give a reason why not. > 2. Other tech has to actually show this rapid advance, and not be the permanent state of fiction Incredibly, you seem unaware of just how rapidly the cost of solar and wind and batteries have dropped. If we project the demonstrated experience curve of PV forward another five doublings or so, PV energy will be delivered at under $0…

> It does, for the reason I gave.

You didn't give reasons. You presented this as an undeniable fact. And the whole reason is "but advances".

E.g. you literally listed green hydrogen as a viable storage solution even if we literally don't know how to store it reliably at required scales. Oh, wait. Your answer to that is "we just store it in underground caverns" lol. Even though it's very, very different to storing natural gas. For example, it takes 16 times as much energy to compress hydrogen as methane. Or that hydrogen embrittlement is a thing (I'm pretty sure you didn't know about this and think that we just pump hydrogen or, indeed, natural gas into empty caverns underground).

And so on and so forth.

> Unlike renewables, nuclear hasn't demonstrated a good experience curve.

Could it be almost 40 years of fear mongering and no advances in nuclear? Whereas France with its nuclear reactors has been busy keeping Germany afloat after it shut down its plants. And whereas China is went from 9 constructions in 2000 to 36 in 2025, 42 new ones proposed, and over 140 on the roadmap, 6-7 years construction time per reactor.

> One can model to determine the effect of intermittency and renewables still come out on top.

Ah yes. So on top, that once there's winter all "on top" countries end up importing energy from countries with stable power generation in form of nuclear and hydro.

> This is why renewables are being installed globally and nuclear largely isn't.

Nuclear isn't installed due to 40 years of nuclear fear-mongering and anti-nuclear policies. China has no issues installing both nuclear and renewables.

Many countries are now reverting their stance on nuclear precisely because diversifying energy sources is a good thing, and we literally don't have more stable sources of electricity than nuclear. We're literally discussing this under a post about Canada finally admitting that nuclear is a good thing actually why don't we build more of it. Following most of Europe, for example. And Asia has never been shy of nuclear energy, with China busily building reactors all over Asia and Middle East.

> I'm pointing out your requirement that no advances be considered also rules out nuclear.

Note how you again invent requirements for no advances, assume this is a fact, and pretend that it is I who requires this. Imagine if you ever had an argument in good faith.

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#472
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the case for nuclear requires one to assume that the competing technologies stop their rapid advance. 1. No, it doesn't 2. Other tech has to actually show this rapid advance, and not be the permanent state of fiction 3. You assume that nuclear is incapable of advances > But making this bet, that renewables will suddenly come up short, that the experience curves will suddenly break their historic trends on the log-l…

> 1. No, it doesn't It does, for the reason I gave. You didn't give a reason why not. > 2. Other tech has to actually show this rapid advance, and not be the permanent state of fiction Incredibly, you seem unaware of just how rapidly the cost of solar and wind and batteries have dropped. If we project the demonstrated experience curve of PV forward another five doublings or so, PV energy will be delivered at under $0…

[deleted]

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#473
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not convinced. The problem is with the human layer of managing large complicated projects. Nuclear could become less unsafe once humanity has found ways not to go commity horrble violence every other generation.

Chernobyl was triggered by humans but the ultimate problem was it's design. And it shows - Fukushima was triggered by tsunami, but ultimate problem was again the design. But since the design was much better, the impact is much milder vs Chernobyl

> Fukushima was triggered by tsunami, but ultimate problem was again the design.

And honestly it wasn't, not really. It was hit with a record-breaking earthquake and a record-breaking tsunami... and more lives were lost due to evacuation than to the plant shutdown.

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#474
post #227
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is with the human layer of managing large complicated projects. I guess we should stop having large, complicated projects. Potable water mains, road and rail networks, the power grid, the internet, bridges, medicine, etc, are all too complicated for humans to manage. I mean, nuclear is only the safest form of energy generation that humanity has ever produced, but you're absolutely right.

What's the absolute worst that could happen when a water mains breaks? What's the absolute worst that could happen when a train derails? What's the absolute worst that could happen when a backhoe snacks on a fiber trunk? Now, what's the absolute worst that could happen when a nuclear reactor spirals out of control?

What's the absolute worse if a dam breaks? Oh, only up to a quarter of a million dead [1]. And yet we propose to build more dams because they are a great renewable source of energy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#475
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your proposal is to use nuclear as only backup? Or for only late nights (after batteries have discharged)? That dooms nukes economically, they need to run and sell power at close to 100% 24/7 to have any chance paying back the capex & opex. What you’re saying makes sense but only for a planned state economy where the government owns (or subsidizes) all generation. It’s not possible in a free market economy, the nukes…

Most electricity generation is handled by the government already, particularly in Canada. Worldwide approximately 88% of global electricity generation capacity is owned or controlled by national and local governments. Some Canadian provinces have IPPs -- Independent Private-Power companies but they are often operating under the patronage of government. Many owe their existence to privatisation, lobbying and sweethear…

88% seems impossibly high. “Or controlled by” must be doing some heavy lifting. Government owned power is 9% of the US, 25% of Australia, 1% of the UK.

If “or controlled by” means privately owned plants that are subject to local regulations, then that is not particularly interesting or relevant to the discussion

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#476
post #141

Perhaps relevant. 2005 ish - UK government release energy strategy and declares fission power plant intent. 2010 ish - UK government formally announces Hinkley Point site. It's declared the first reactor will come online 2019. 2019 - it does not. 2026 - best estimate is now 'around 2030'. Historical cost estimates are an utter quagmire - but roughly estimated at £18 billion a decade ago, back when it was estimated to…

Also relevant - all recent Canadian refurbs were on time and budget

When you say 'all' - is that five?

Since 1999?

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the point which is to create jobs, it’s what the Canadian government is pushing really hard for now, with all the infrastructure projects it’s launching. Something that will need people working on building for 15 years sounds about right for what government is doing now.

you can create even more jobs with ren. But not all jobs are the same. With ren you compete with China. With nuclear - you are somewhat protected since many don't like the idea of a hualong near them

What’s ren? What’s hualong?

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#478
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduction in burning carbon and producing greenhouses is the number one concern of environmentalists Is it? Nothing is more environmentally friendly than hydroelectric dams. In Canada, there are endless rivers to dam, while also leaving endless rivers undammed. Further, damming a river doesn't destroy nature, it does however turn a river into a lake. Over the years it takes to build and complete the project, includin…

The concrete is a small part of the problem. Flooding gigantic areas and stopping the natural water flow have serious consequences for widelife, but most people don't care enough.

Actually, I addressed that in my comment. There are no real serious consequences for wildlife, instead, the local ecosystem changes and different wildlife moves in.

You do realise that rivers are constantly shifting, disappearing, lakes forming and disappearing, that none of this is static, yes?

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explains why Ontario built natural gas plants alongside its wind/solar rollout. That does not explain why Ontario needs more nuclear power generation some nebulous time in the future to support those same wind/solar installations per the original comment and parent reference.

It needs nuclear to avoid using gas. Ren will be curtailed anyway. May as well curtail them for nuclear. Germany is a prime example of fossils+ren combo https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/zone/DE/live/fifteen_min...

As a friendly reminder, we are talking about not just nuclear, but base load nuclear. The gas plants in Ontario are used as peaker plants and even if nuclear were to replace them in that role, as unlikely as that is, that would not see it operating as the base load we are talking about — that the earlier comment said Ontario needs more of because of wind/solar installations built over the past decade. Except that is exactly the role that nuclear plays in Ontario and is already sized appropriately to match anything needed from wind/solar.

Ontario anticipates that electricity usage will climb in the future and is working to build more capacity to accommodate future demand. There will be need for increased nuclear capacity to service that. However, it remains uncertain what that has to do with a wind or solar install from 10 years ago?

Re: Canada plans 'nuclear renaissance' with up to 10 reactors built by 2040

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compact, mass produced nuclear energy projects with no nuclear proliferation risk and radioactive waste management time limited to less than one human generation's professional career span. That seems like a decent baseline to me. Not sure if fission will ever be able to reach that. Fusion perhaps? I'd certainly like to see that researched with high priority. In the short to medium term at the very least, I see more…

Some of the GenIV designs would be compact and easily mass-produced. You'll never get waste management below about 300 years with fission, because that's basically what you get from the fission products. But the really long-term stuff is plutonium and other transuranics. Those are unburnt fuel. Fast reactors and some molten salt reactors are supposed to eliminate that. Bury the fission products for 300 years and they…

> You'll never get waste management below about 300 years with fission, because that's basically what you get from the fission products.

That's at least one and probably more like five wars over the reactor territory.

I'm mildly optimistic about fusion's potential...

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