I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#471

Post by CobaltFire » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:20 PM UTC

notnullorvoid wrote: post #469

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

> nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. It's typical for people to accumulate many examples of how "not to teach", and it's natural to extrapolate those experiences into ideas of "how to teach". To your point though, most people don't know how to do things they aren't practiced in, and some don't even know how to do things they are practiced in. > They would grasp the su…

I was taught (when teaching for the military, actually) that leadership/teaching/etc. often talk about toolboxes but neglect a VERY important one.

You shouldn't just have a toolbox of things you've picked up from your best examples, that you've been taught, etc. It's possibly more important to have another toolbox of broken tools from all the terrible bosses, reactions to situations you've witnessed, etc.

This way when you go to do something and it's not in your toolbox, you can pull out that box of broken/bad tools and see if it's there. Otherwise we perpetuate bad leadership (and teaching IS leadership) through intentional ignorance (forgetting the lessons those bad situations gave us).

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#472

Post by HappMacDonald » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:22 PM UTC

daedrdev wrote: post #425

Dfiesl wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im definitely in this camp. It seems like the biggest frustration from the teachers’ part with modern schooling is lack of engagement from the students. This is clearly telling us something. Sure some students have not even had their basic needs met, which is a separate issue. But those that have and still don’t engage tells us that their brains have probably assigned the information they’re receiving as “having litt…

I think math bas be slowly transforming more and more into word problems and scenarios. You might think oh yeah this engages the student by showing them reality, but I actually found it incredibly boring and useless, it served as a distraction from the actual numbers that I think are important to learn too.

Part of the goal there is not only "relatability" (demonstrating how this could be useful in reality) but "applicability" (demonstrating HOW to distill a math problem out of some potentially messy real world anecdote).

I have legit seen real world adults do things like say "Well, I got ten widgets because I know that's enough for two people. But there's gonna be four coming so.. uh.. 10+2=12, I'll bring 12 widgets"

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#473

Post by CobaltFire » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:23 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #463

annzabelle wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was lucky to attend a liberal arts college with a large and extremely pedagogy focused mathematics department, and all of my math classes there were like this. Engaging lectures, if I listened and wrote down everything on the board I would be able to get a B on the exams, even if I skimped on practice. Made it all the way to measure theory this way. They included in class group practice integrated with the lectures…

I'm having a hard time believing this. I've had one really good math teacher, his lecture prep was thorough, and the way he presented the material was very understandable, but without doing the problem sets, and some pre-exam review, I would not have been able to remember everything weeks later on an exam.

I can believe this. I had some subjects I was able to do this for going through Naval Nuclear Power school, and later college. Others I was unable to do this with.

Different people grasp things at different rates.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#474

Post by hylaride » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:25 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #449

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

One of my sons is one of those. He's smart, tends to creative pursuits, and while he will research and learn on his own about stuff he's interested in, put him in a classroom setting, for something he doesn't really care about, and he just won't do the work.

I was one of those kids.

Did well in class, participated, and my grades trended downwards as the school year went on.

A lot of it was undiagnosed ADHD, which didn't work well with the repetitive nature of much public schooling. OK, let's do polynomials. Start with two terms...then three...then four...and on and on. I lost interest after three. Of course, then I didn't study or practice and did poorly on tests.

I grasped the concepts, but couldn't be bothered to study.

I had the same problems in other subjects. I'm a big history nerd. I could write a huge essay on the causes of WW1, but instead the tests were "what was the date of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand...".

We also read the Hobbit as a grade 8 class book. First question on the test? "Name all the dwarves that were at Bilbo's party...". It took me a decade to re-read it and get into Lord of the Rings.

I've actually thrived in the "real world" because I can quickly grasp concepts and with a combination of grit managed to make a great tech career. I was lucky with timing though. Had I been born a 5 years later, the career path wouldn't have worked.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#475

Post by notnullorvoid » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:26 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #449

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

One of my sons is one of those. He's smart, tends to creative pursuits, and while he will research and learn on his own about stuff he's interested in, put him in a classroom setting, for something he doesn't really care about, and he just won't do the work.

> put him in a classroom setting, for something he doesn't really care about, and he just won't do the work.

Coming from a family of people assumed to be like this, and having friends in similar situations. Rarely are they actually disinterested in the subject, but are disinterested in how it was taught and self conscious of their perceived understanding of the subject. It's easier to say you don't care when it comes up.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#476

Post by hylaride » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:29 PM UTC

PotatoPrime wrote: post #467

jon-wood wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had students that I knew were smart that I was forced to fail. They would grasp the subjects quickly when I was speaking, they would ask good questions during class...and then they would simply never study or do the homework I assigned them, and then they would do terrible on tests and I'd be stuck having to give them a bad grade. They were smart students, but they didn't want to be there. Yeah, I was that studen…

> How about we instead make time during the school day for kids to sit down and do the (incredibly valuable) bit of applying what they're learning to some concrete tasks? This is great in theory, but then you have students who complete those tasks in half the time allotted, who then proceed to distract the rest of the class. No easy one size fits all to the hw problem unfortunately.

Universal K-12 education was probably one of the greatest level-up programs that society has ever implemented. The question now, is it holding us back and how (if) it should be reformed. And reform is dangerous as there are people whose only goal is to ruin it, damned the consequences.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#477

Post by HappMacDonald » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:30 PM UTC

roysting wrote: post #237

ChaitanyaSai wrote: post #228

Schooling has been trying for ever to institutionalize and standardize learning without really understanding what learning is. In that absence, we've focused on learning proxies, which are tests. And tests resulted in a focus on mechanics. Meaning was and is an intangible so it got leached out. Everything school does starts at the wrong end of meaning > motiviation > mechanics > measurement. It is possible to fix sch…

Have you ever heard of John Taylor Gatto? If not, you may want to look into his books. They will help you realize that schooling and learning/education are mutually exclusive and even that schooling is counterproductive because its primary objectives are hostile to the objectives of education, real learning as a human. The worst people in the world created schooling and the education system for their own narrow, self…

If the purpose of a system is what it does, then what does the system of "not going to school" do?

If schooling and learning/education are truly mutually exclusive then who is the most learned and educated person you can point to that never stepped foot in a school? And how do those rare examples compare against the breadth of modern PHD holders?

There are a non-negligible fraction of kids that are kept out of school, homeschooled, etc. If school was as bad for learning as you suggest then one would expect those kept out of it to demonstrate higher-than-average aptitude.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#478

Post by vitally3643 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:33 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

Almost all such attempts start with the flawed assumption that there is One True Way to teach literally every person in the same cookie cutter fashion.

The fact that the dozens or hundreds of different teaching styles have great success with some but not all is not considered past "some is not all therefore it's a failure".

Individual humans can be radically different and have completely different needs. It's astounding how many people refuse to realize this.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#479

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:36 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #235

ChaitanyaSai wrote: post #228

Schooling has been trying for ever to institutionalize and standardize learning without really understanding what learning is. In that absence, we've focused on learning proxies, which are tests. And tests resulted in a focus on mechanics. Meaning was and is an intangible so it got leached out. Everything school does starts at the wrong end of meaning > motiviation > mechanics > measurement. It is possible to fix sch…

I don't fully understand your comment but I think an issue with schooling is that tests are the meaning of schools - that is, test results and graduating are the objective of an education. This is the disconnect I've always found growing up, I get told this is how you calculate angles, but besides the test, there's never the why . Granted this is a bad example because at least that one had a practical, real life appl…

You may be saying the same thing in different words. Scores and graduation may be the objective for some - but that doesnt this is an effective motivation for many.

If you have ever been stuck doing a project you didnt want or like, you may relate.

> Meaning > motivation > mechanics > measurement.

You might propose that getting a good measurement is the meaning, but saying that doesn't mean a student has really or fully bought into this idea and find it compelling. i.e Their heart may not be in it.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#480

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:37 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #447

thaumasiotes wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Focus on (positive) emotions. Give kids incentives. I taught at an English-immersion high school in Shanghai. It's worth remarking that the boy at the top of the class in each grade was dating the girl at the top of the class.

Are you suggesting that in that culture boys/girls did not value the other party unless they were academically similar...? I can believe it, but I don't know if it's true. Obviously not true in the US.

I'm suggesting that in Chinese culture, academic success is an effective way to impress girls.