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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#471

Post by stkdump »

dheera wrote: post #88
Aurornis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run? Most common software that typical buyers use is available on Mac or Windows: Web browsers, office software, maybe an e-mail client. This is why Chromebooks are a viable option, too. Even my software development workflows are mostly cross-platform when I think about it. I can run…

> Most common software that typical buyers use is available on Mac or Windows That's not how most people think. Most non-techies are either fluent with "how to use a Mac" or "how to use Windows" and they will just stick with that inertia. For a lot of people, learning a new OS is an ordeal.

Which is probably why Apple is now selling to students at what appears to be below cost.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#472

Post by Danox »

tencentshill wrote: post #133
benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.

Apple moved ahead with thunderbolt five should they keep thunderbolt four? Moving to thunderbolt five is necessary if you want to drive more information to a 5K or 6k monitor or any other peripheral.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#473

Post by happymellon »

thefossguy69 wrote: post #458
majormajor wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me. This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode. Apple's desktop experience DNA is still, for better or worse, deeply anchored to spati…

>> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me. > This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode. Sorry about that. I should've clarified better. What I meant was that Apple's opini…

Not sure I agree with this considering they have the double whammy of maximising giving you a new desktop, and also their default behaviour of shuffling your desktops to make sure you're disoriented.

The ideal desktop is a cluttered desk, where only the desk knows where it has stuck your tasks.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#474

Post by blazarquasar »

makeitdouble wrote: post #400
blazarquasar wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but a MacBook is still better value for your money than any of the new Thinkpads, performance and build-quality wise.

What's your universal "value for money" index that should apply to everyone ? For instance why should a touch support or better port selection be less valuable to me than let's say battery life ? Does supporting multiple OSes have a defined value to money ratio that I'm not aware of ?

Well, thats why I specifically mentioned “performance and build-quality wise”. If you want to run Linux, then it’s obviously not a viable option.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#475

Post by [deleted] »

al_borland wrote: post #463
functionmouse wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The work is done. Why not just leave it in? Or FOSS it so the community maintains it, like WINE?

Microsoft maintains backward compatibility seemingly forever and it means a lot more complexity, more surface area for vulnerabilities, and critically that they are unable to ever get developers to buy-in to any new ideas. Developers know their current app will keep working, so why bother with the re-write? Then due to the lack of adoption, they kill the project and try something else. I believe this to be one of the…

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#476

Post by Danox »

bhouston wrote: post #86
LarsDu88 wrote: post #70

What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago. And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end. The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a…

> CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die" This is actually great. The laptop body stays the same and you swap out a small mini circuit board that has the CPU + GPU + DRAM on it. This is the point of the Framework laptops. They are just unfortunately stuck with non-Apple parts and thus are slow / inefficient. Maybe Qualcomm can make a motherboard for Framework high end laptops with their Snapdragon X2 Elite…

Qualcomm is basically at heart a patent troll company. They give nothing away and they double dip on their Frand patents they won’t support anything if they don’t have to good luck if you think Apple is bad Qualcomm is on a whole different level…

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#477

Post by thefossguy69 »

wwalexander wrote: post #460
thefossguy69 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

>> > cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts > Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i...

The first link is about arranging/tiling the windows. There are zero keyboard shortcuts to move the focus from the window on left to the window on right. It looks like someone used the equivalent of monitor codenames for keyboard shortcuts. Some operations don't even have a keyboard shortcut.

Additionally, while it does show how tiling is performed on macOS, tiling is not treated as a serious feature of the desktop. When "tiling" is used in context of window managers on Linux and BSDs, it implies that the windows are tiled automatically by the WM. It is done for several purposes, but ones that are important to me are:

1. Determinism (for the lack of a better word) of window placement. When I open n^th window, I know where to move my eyes. At the moment, this is arbitrary-ish on macOS. 2. Not having to tile every window manually. I only do this when I have a specific layout in mind. Default tiling behaviour can be configured by the WM's config file(s). At the moment, on macOS, I need to be explicit in tiling every window. 3. Keyboard oriented traversal between tiled windows. This is an extremely important part of a tiling WM. I can move my window or just the focus anywhere, without ever needing to reach for my mouse. Granted, I'm not a superhuman who can take advantage of this speed but I like control over my navigation of the desktop I am interacting with.

None of these are satisfied by macOS natively. Unless some app/plugin is used, which has no guarantee of working in future if Apple wishes to break something. On Linux, this is not the case, the WM is part of the desktop, even more so on Wayland.

> You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

This is about setting keyboard shortcuts for custom actions for applications, not window traversal on the desktop. Something like Ctrl+Left and Ctrl+Right which moves the focus between virtual desktops, but for the current desktop, moving the focus between the windows. I am not aware of this being possible at the moment.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#478

Post by glenstein »

commandersaki wrote: post #415
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

Pretty sure Linux has had this capability since the 90s.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#479

Post by fragmede »

Aurornis wrote: post #18

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499…

[dead]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#480

Post by spockz »

thefossguy69 wrote: post #477
wwalexander wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

>> > cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts > Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i ... The first link is about arranging/tiling the windows. There are zero keyboard shortcuts to move the focus from the window on left to the window on right. It looks like someone used the equivalent of monitor codenames for keyboard shortcuts. Some operations don't even have a keyboard shortcu…

You can use Rectangle to get all that what you want in terms of tiling.

Moving between windows of the same app is cmd+~. Cmd-tab moves to another app, remaining on the same desktop if that has a window there.

The delay in focus can be reduced by turning off animations in “accessibility”.

Regardless, I’m with you on that everything is way more snappy on my Linux machine. Even if it’s running a “full” WM/DM like KDE.

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