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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#471

Post by a34ta3t »

M3L0NM4N wrote: post #131
ryandrake wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measuring (and funding) schools based on student outcome is fraught because a student's performance / preparedness for the "next level" is not entirely a function of the school. There are other significant parameters, including parental upbringing, home life stability, neighborhood safety, friends, hunger/nutrition, various trauma and abuse, the list goes on. I'm sure it's been studied, but I'd bet "school quality" i…

The number 1 predictor of educational outcome is IQ by a long shot, which is hardly affected by any of the factors you listed. Yes, high IQ kids usually have high IQ parents who are likely to prevent those things, partly because they are likely high income, but none of those are as important as how smart the child is.

I scored ~145 on a recent WAIS assessment (with low to average processing scores) and I could train most children to do the same if they started early enough.

That's basically what my upper middle class parents did for me, as the tests were very similar to games I was given since a young age. Of course there are other more important developmental factors like health, stability, and nutrition but those are easier with money too.

Most of HN seem to support a form of modern eugenics.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#472

Post by jnovek »

rayiner wrote: post #405
borski wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it’s possible that a family might value education but not have the literal time, if they are working non stop, to take the kids to a further school? Or to take care of them afterward? You’re avoiding the point by saying “anyone who cares can,” and avoiding the economics entirely. Economics can force choices against your own best interests. If you have an hour between shifts and the school is 45 minutes away, y…

Most people aren’t “working non stop.” Out of non-disabled SNAP recipients with children, only 10% work full time, and only 33% work more than 20 hours a week: https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-f... (table a.26)

There is so much context here that you’re missing — have you ever been poor before?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#473

Post by csomar »

WarmWash wrote: post #159

Why do we have such an easy time accepting peoples intrinsic athletic ability and such a difficult time accepting people's intrinsic mental ability? To me this is a 1:1 comparison, but people lose their mind when I make the comparison. College isn't for everyone just like amateur league sport isn't for everyone. I feel like I am going to a minor league baseball game and seeing a shortstop on the field with the motor…

athletic games are fun and there is some money in these small circles but that's not what runs the economy. So it's only affecting a very small percentage of society vs. mental ability which affect most of society. The french revolution, communism, capitalism, etc.. It is a very heated topic and it's about who gets to control/have power.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#474

Post by bee_rider »

julianeon wrote: post #143
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

> Personally, I think all funding in California education (other than terminal levels like 4 year bachelors and up) should be a function of the percentage of students that succeed at the next step. This has the unintended consequence of encouraging schools to eject students who are struggling. For example, if the student has a learning disability, declare that it's too serious for them to handle, and then transfer th…

I’m not going to defend the broader plan (I don’t believe in it, or at least, I haven’t thought about it enough to be convinced either way). But for the ejection issue, one possibility would be to just count all ejected students as a “fail” for the school, right?

Then, the incentive would shift to prevent the students they don’t want from entering the school in the first place. Which could be a real pain for the students. But, this does seems like it would incentivize the schools to do what the original poster wanted, check that the incoming students actually learned what they were supposed to.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#475

Post by dnautics »

ses1984 wrote: post #351
hedora wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but back when California was poorer, it had some of the best schools in the nation. Now that it's richer, the schools are collapsing, so it's really hard to argue that systematic social problems are the root cause.

The only thing that changed is that California got richer, and it just so happens that wealth was evenly distributed. How convenient.

california spends about ~2.5k more per pupil in low income districts than high income districts.

https://www.ppic.org/publication/financing-californias-publi...

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#476

Post by habinero »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #413
j_w wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the "sucky" schools are statistically where poor people go to school, which statistically is where minorities go to school. School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice.

I am all for helping the worse off. However, one of the most repulsive ideas is that you can cripple everyone else, because some people have less. This is slave morality and the logic of ressentiment and envy. It is also profoundly immoral. Never mind that this approach condemns everyone to a state of perpetual mediocrity, and the poor will always be with us. Mind you, how much you value education is to a large degre…

> I am all for helping the worse off. However, one of the most repulsive ideas is that you can cripple everyone else, because some people have less.

Bruh. It's easy to prattle on about "objective improvement" and "slave morality" and pretend everything's a zero sum game where funding is fixed and we can do nothing to change the system. Neither is true. This is just an excuse to absolve yourself of doing any of the hard work to improve things.

> The focus should be on making things better, not bizarre idealistic notions like "equality" or "equity"

Man, does anyone else hear that high pitched sound? Just me? Huh.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#477

Post by delfinom »

MyHonestOpinon wrote: post #442
jdw64 wrote: post #45

Looking at the world, it seems we all go through similar systemic issues. Naturally, in East Asian cultures where the fervor for education is overheated, this phenomenon tended to manifest much earlier. When specific exams are abolished or watered down under the banner of 'diversity and equal opportunity,' the wealthy actually gain a massive advantage. Of course, the exam system itself inherently favors the rich as w…

I agree. The rich kids will always have an advantage. But let me ask why are we playing this like a zero sum game? Do we not have enough education for anyone who is willing to put up the work?

We do have tons of education resources available nation wide. Over here in NYC, we have the highest per-capita spending on students with some of the worse outcome rates in the country. The biggest problem nobody wants to address is parental involvement.

Parents who want their kids to learn and excel will get their kids to learn and excel. Be it through their own involvement with classwork or actively hunting out better education opportunities. _Money_ helps but it isn't the end-all solution.

Meanwhile, if you have parents who treat schools as day care and do jackshit to be involved in their kids education. Well, those are the failing students you get.

Shit, I'll add as a child of two eastern european immigrants. My parents both worked 2 jobs each for years while I was in public school here in the US, they immigrated with basically nothing to their name and hard labor jobs. And they would still make time to help me with homework.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#478

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #411
tracker1 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bottom 75th percentile don't advance humanity to nearly the same level. Do you think you'd have the internet or iPads if everyone was capped to the 75th percentile? No. Beyond this, the entire point of higher education is to push those who are able to higher levels, not to drag the 75% along for the ride.

> The bottom 75th percentile don't advance humanity to nearly the same level. Who do you think produces all the value in the world? It's not the people organizing the labor, it's the goddamn laborers. > Do you think you'd have the internet or iPads if everyone was capped to the 75th percentile? No. What do you think we would be eating if we left the world up to the rich nerds? We would have starved many millennia ago…

[deleted]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#479

Post by Levitz »

ninalanyon wrote: post #337
JCTheDenthog wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results from Abbott Districts in New Jersey would suggest that increased funding and resources does little if anything to improve results. Abbott Districts in New Jersey have been getting funding at roughly the same level or higher as the wealthiest districts in the state since 1990, and they have nothing to show for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district The difference in math proficiency for Abbott s…

Resources != funding Resources means teachers qualified, able, and willing to teach in those areas. That probably means paying them more than a similarly qualified teacher in an area that is currently doing better and hence more attractive. But it also means finding head teachers (principals in the US?) who can inspire the whole school, staff, pupils, and parents. Such people are not thick on the ground. And then you…

>Resources means teachers qualified, able, and willing to teach in those areas.

Then the culture in those areas has to change.

It feels like every single other option has to be tried before considering that there's real, settled cultural issues that society ought to tackle. It is insane, and I mean "nobody who ever holds views like these should have access to power or authority on these matters" type of definition of "insane" that there is more concern about equality, or equity, or whatever the last brand of discrimination, than about the problems around not respecting authority and not valuing an education. It is utterly dysfunctional regarding societal growth.

It's not just being poor. It's not just racism. Yes those are absolutely issues in society, but equality of that degree is an affordance you can work on when you have a functional system.

There is no magic teacher, no magic principal, no magic anyone that's going to walk through the door of a school and "set them kids right" with a biblical amount of kindness and understanding. That's a fairy tale, it's utterly detached from reality and a pathetic refusal to look at the problem.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#480

Post by sieabahlpark »

HelloNurse wrote: post #258
Bratmon wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to this is that schooling/care for people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school should be a totally different budget with different success criteria than the budget for normal school. There are two different and contradictory goals here- the current dynamic where every gain for one is a loss for the other creates a ton of bad outcomes across the board.

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