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Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

asteriskmag.com

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Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#471

To the author, my guy, you are clearly not an endocrinologist stop pretending you are, and trust the people that study these things for a living. Not only you can't take more than 4 grams of paracetamol per day, you must not take it for more than 3 days straight, it says so on the leaflet. Biochemistry and medicine are hard and complex, all the quacks out there that preach snake oil treatments went down the path of t…

Is this comment in the wrong place? The article is literally about how the medical establishment gives good advice on acetaminophen and ibuprofen, but it's not getting through to people.

He gets there after exposing a bunch of "research" he did himself and after admitting he was using ibuprofen for a long time because he "thought" it was safer.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#472

Doc here. One thing every single member of the general public needs to get drilled into them: Medical science is NOT intuitive. You cannot just read the mechanism of action of a drug and infer a dozen things from it. A drug's mechanism of action, its indication (when it ought to be used) and its adverse effects CANNOT simply be inferred logically from each other. Biology is orders of magnitude more complex than SE/CS…

Was the article flat out wrong or at least misleading in any way that might lead people to make poor decisions regarding which drug to take?

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#474
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh right - that's probably what we did, buy a big pack from behind the counter. I don't think you can even do that in the UK. Yeah we usually have a few packs hanging around, and I get the 'it seems stupid' thing, but sometimes just adding a tiny bit of friction when someone's trying to kill themselves might save a life. I dunno, I hope that's shown in the evidence anyway. Otherwise it's just pointless like the whole…

> Oh right - that's probably what we did, buy a big pack from behind the counter. No, when you visited they were still on the shelf. They only put them behind the counter in 2025. > sometimes just adding a tiny bit of friction when someone's trying to kill themselves might save a life I'm philosophically not for making suicide harder. If someone wants to die, that's their right. And practically, while you might be ab…

The point is that many don't really want to. Those that actually want to can buy two boxes from two shops or ask the pharmacist for the big pack from behind the counter.

This just adds a tiny amount of friction to impulsive attempts, which may be a classic cry for help or just someone in the depths of some sort of mental health episode. Such folks may think better of it the next day and a very small amount of inconvenience will put them off. I think suicide is serious enough that you should probably mean it, and societally saying 'think twice about this' is a good thing.

On the idea that it just shift deaths, as your sibling poster points out (from the UK) -

"in the 11 years following the legislation there were an estimated 765 fewer suicide and open verdict deaths from paracetamol poisoning, which represented a reduction of 43% [...] This reduction was largely unaltered after controlling for a downward trend in deaths involving other methods of poisoning and also suicides by all methods."

https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/research/research-groups/csr/rese...

So it looks like this tiny, tiny barrier does actually deter people. And that definitely points to them not really being sold on it in any rational way.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#475

> But if acetaminophen is safer, then why don’t official sources tell you that? Guess it depends on country. Here in Norway official sources[1][2] do say acetaminophen (paracetamol here) should be the default for treating fever and pain in kids, adults, pregnant women and elderly, and have for some time. Ibuprofen they say should be used with caution. [1]: https://www.dmp.no/nyheter/behov-for-smertestillende-slik-ve.…

They do in NZ. Paracetamol is promoted as the safest, most well studied pain relief for short and chronic conditions. In Australia however they have just started limiting how many you can buy at a time for some reason while ibuprofen covers the chemist shelves without any such controls despite the risks.

IIRC it's because Paracetamol has low threshold for overdose, and is often blended in with other cold and flu medicines in Aus so it is easy to exceed daily dose if you are say, taking some conbination of paracetamol + Sudafed (paracetamol+decongestant) + drinking a Lemsip (lemony vitamin powder with more paracetamol).

It is only packet size restricted in supermarkets, you can still buy bulk packs from chemists.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#476

Doc here. One thing every single member of the general public needs to get drilled into them: Medical science is NOT intuitive. You cannot just read the mechanism of action of a drug and infer a dozen things from it. A drug's mechanism of action, its indication (when it ought to be used) and its adverse effects CANNOT simply be inferred logically from each other. Biology is orders of magnitude more complex than SE/CS…

The above two core properties make it possible to more or less reliably reason about bit SE/CS systems from first principles. The complete absence of above two in medicine means you cannot do the same there. I'm a doctor as well and I think your statement here is too broad. Plenty of specialists such as cardiologists, orthopedic surgeons, radiologists, etc are able to reason things from first principles. The issue is…

I'm a doctor who used to be an engineer. Deriving things from first principles in medicine is a lie we doctors tell ourselves.the truth is this.we have some really good understanding of syne things at molecular levels that we then correlates to things that happen clinically at a macro level, that correlation is very very handwavy. But we teach it as if we know for sure. We don't. The few things that we think we have a somwhat good correlation for, we often test on our exams, but even for most of those things, it's some handwavy link

I recall being an engineering classes, armed with just calculus and linear algebra and newton laws, I could attack just about every problem from first principles from my entire undergrad. Every. I didn't have to take into consideration real life presentation of the problem. First principles were enough to get me nearly there

Medicine is fundamentally not that way. Yes we learn the biology, but if you reason solely from biology, you will quickly end up in the wrong places. to become a doctor, I had to learn that hard way that yeah a disease doesn't just present this way just because the underlying physics and biology suggests it should. You separately have to learn how the disease presents, then try to tie it back to our extensive but still very very limited understanding of the possible biology.

I have problems with doctors that don't acknowledge how tenous that link is and despite how much we know, we still know so so little. We are far more useful than what we know.

I understand to biology majors, the few things that seem to follow physiologically from moelculqr biology dupes us into thinking medicine currebtly derives from first pricinples. But it doesnt.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#477

Doc here. One thing every single member of the general public needs to get drilled into them: Medical science is NOT intuitive. You cannot just read the mechanism of action of a drug and infer a dozen things from it. A drug's mechanism of action, its indication (when it ought to be used) and its adverse effects CANNOT simply be inferred logically from each other. Biology is orders of magnitude more complex than SE/CS…

> Clean layering. We’d all wish it’d be so, doctor. Sometimes it’s as clean as biological systems - touch something somewhere, a different seemingly completely unrelated thing elsewhere breaks. Even in the dawn of the era, where accumulated complexity was a while lot lower, we have tales of 500-mile emails and “magic/more magic” switch ;-) Inferring things in a legacy codebase old enough to drink can be quite a chall…

Good analogy except a human is several orders in magnitude more complex than that

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's also healthier in the long run, no? Long-winding tangential anecdote (which is why I'm replying to myself in a separate comment), but I have pretty extreme example of this: I managed to avoid nearly all suffering after getting a tonsillectomy in my mid-thirties, while using almost no painkillers. My ENT surgeons warned that me "I'd hate him for about a month, then I'd love him for never having to deal with […

You rediscovered normal saline! The plain water hurts because it's causing cells to swell or even burst as water rushes into them to equalize the osmotic pressure. Adding a little bit of salt to that helps remove that pressure because the environment inside and outside of the cells are both equally salt.

Well, not so much rediscovered it as reasoned that that might be the cause of the pain and then confirmed it. The shocking part is that no doctor advises to use this after a tonsillectomy (or other kind of mouth or throat procedure).

My dad (also a doctor) called it a typical case of "the nurse's wisdom": the kind of quality of life interventions that typiqally get discovered by nurses and passed down orally, but never make it to official medical journals.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#479
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but how good are you at judging if a human mind is irrational or not without engaging in conversation with it? Why not extend that logic to your body.

All human minds are irrational, including mine. And yours.

I fail to see where anything I said implied that I disagree with that sentiment.

Also, you were arguing we should not listen to pain when it's acting irrational, as in unreasonable. Then you switch to "all minds being irrational", as in actually not rational. That's not the same thing.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#480
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh right - that's probably what we did, buy a big pack from behind the counter. No, when you visited they were still on the shelf. They only put them behind the counter in 2025. > sometimes just adding a tiny bit of friction when someone's trying to kill themselves might save a life I'm philosophically not for making suicide harder. If someone wants to die, that's their right. And practically, while you might be ab…

The point is that many don't really want to. Those that actually want to can buy two boxes from two shops or ask the pharmacist for the big pack from behind the counter. This just adds a tiny amount of friction to impulsive attempts, which may be a classic cry for help or just someone in the depths of some sort of mental health episode. Such folks may think better of it the next day and a very small amount of inconve…

I just don't buy the paternalism. People have free will, if they want to do something they would regret later, it's still their right.

That quote doesn't say what you think it means. It's not talking at all about whether suicides shifted to other methods; it only says that there was a secular decline in poisonings (-32%) and suicides in general (-10%) during the study, so they have to also discount some of the raw 48% drop in paracetamol as being part of that broader trend and not due to the treatment. They come to the 43% number only with a generous assumption that had the law not gone into effect, there would have been an increasing trend in deaths from paracetamol poisoning, which seems wrong to me. The more obvious way to derive the prior would be to look at non-paracetamol poisonings and expect the same trend, in which case the effect might be something like -24%.

Anyhow, it's still perfectly possible that the people who were deterred from paracetamol poisoning committed suicide some other way; the data in that paper says nothing about it.

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