Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Japan has such good railways

worksinprogress.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 609 posts

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#471

Post by SenHeng »

codethief wrote: post #455

> In 1982, Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone started to privatize the railways. Unlike other countries, Japan simply returned to the traditional private railway model of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries: tracks, trains, stations, and yards were owned by vertically integrated regional conglomerates. There are substantial advantages to vertical integration. Railways are a closed system that has to be planned…

A problem with privatising the railways is that unprofitable routes, ie rural villages, are deprioritised or simply shut down.

My village gets 1 train every 1.5 hours, and none between 3pm and 7pm. For several years now, there has been discussion of shutting down the upper half of the route.

So every household has 2 or more cars.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#473

Post by SenHeng »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #121
savanaly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? My bias/priors are that the simpler and truer statement is: it can't be overstated how beneficial more permissive zoning laws are to a society.

There are other aspects beyond simply being more permissive. I recall reading for example that property transfer tax is remarkably less on bare land, enough so that when travelling in Japan you will regularly notice bare lots for sale, as it is beneficial for the seller to tear down a lot before they sell it. This sort of thing encourages churn of housing, and coupled with liberal zoning, enables an accelerated incre…

Property taxes on land zoned for residential use are 6x more expensive if left bare. That’s why Japan has an akiya plague, because even a dilapidated building will keep taxes down.

I couldn’t find a more general article so here’s an example from a generic small town council.

https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/faq/kurashi/1001633/10016...

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#474

Post by hollerith »

magnio wrote: post #197
rayiner wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m probably a top 5% train nerd for the U.S. I took trains to work primarily from 2012-2020, in NYC, Philly, Baltimore, and DC. I used to ride Amtrak from Baltimore to DC every morning. I love Tokyo’s train system. I go there every year and I always take the train. But when I went there with my wife and three kids, I took a lot of Ubers! You can’t fit our double stroller with big America bags of toys and snacks on a…

Damn, we get it, USA is a dystopia. No need to keep scaring us with those stories.

It just occurred to me that some of the car-hating comments on HN might be motivated by a yearning for a more communal way of life (the expression of which has been suppressed by the US's ethic of freedom for the individual).

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#475

Post by tuna74 »

tnk0 wrote: post #437
cyberax wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main low-hanging fruit is just removing surface parking lots You're pre-supposing that transit is _better_ than cars. It's not. ESPECIALLY the Japanese transit. I certainly don't want to suffer through this bullshit every day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Xg7ui5mLA

I'm a Tokyo local and yes, this is real. Even I find it uncomfortable. On the Yamanote Line during rush hour, trains come every 2-3 minutes and it can still look close to this. That said, most people's daily commute isn't this extreme -- it depends heavily on the line and direction. The tradeoff most Tokyo residents accept is: 30 minutes of crowded train vs. hours stuck in traffic with nowhere to park.

There is ample parking everywhere in Japan, you just have to pay for it.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#476

Post by ericmay »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #398
ericmay wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do love the rail system in Japan. Went a few years ago, going back next year most likely. I've also driven in Japan (Osaka). I just meant, in general, a low-hanging fruit we could tackle is making surface parking lots a thing of the past in downtown or urban areas. With actual economically productive constructs there instead, such as business, retail, housing, parks, &c. we could pretty much get to the density…

> we could pretty much get to the density where trams make sense That's the key issue. We don't need to launch a war on surface parking to achieve the necessary density. Zoning and mass transit buildout go hand in hand and the problem getting in the way is fundamentally a political one. If the politics is solved and the density increases market forces will cause the surface parking to go away on their own.

You do though, because you need a higher level of density to make transit make sense, and you need more interesting places for people to live and walk to. When you have easy and convenient parking, particularly these surface lots in downtown areas, you kill the downtown because there's nobody there to support business outside of 9-5 office commutes.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#477

Post by tuna74 »

rayiner wrote: post #339
enaaem wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Tokyo was in America, your situation would be like this: imagine going outside of your home and walk for 10 minutes to a small hamburger shop. It only has 10 seats and it’s run a by hamburger nerd who makes elite hamburgers. This guy grinds his own beef, bakes his own buns and pickles his own pickles and everything is perfect. The burgers are only 8 dollars and you can’t even imagine of making hamburgers yourself.

I know, I’m familiar with Tokyo. But my family would take up half the restaurant, only one of the three kids would like the burger, and the other two would throw a shit fit because the burger guy only sells burgers. Two different societies optimizing for different things.

There are family restaurants in Japan as well. You would not bring your family to the place described above, you would go with your spouse, friends or colleges or other adults.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#478

Post by tuna74 »

ssl-3 wrote: post #318
Freedom2 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes see the US referred to as a "post-rail" society, meaning that it has outgrown the need for rail for the more intimate, personal transportation methods we see today. I submit that, like other HN commenters say, the US doesn't need rail due to this society. How will US citizens help their friends move or do their large (in terms of volume) Costco grocery shopping without large trucks and only using rail?

Trucks can be rented. When then-wife and I were remodelling the tired old house we lived in, we didn't own a truck. We talked about it (and in this instance, had space for one), and we mathed it a bit. The numbers quickly showed that it would be very expensive to own a truck, for only a little bit of added, occasional convenience. When we needed a truck to move cabinets or drywall or whatever, we rented one for that.…

And you also realise that for most things a van is more practical than a pickup truck.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#479

Post by tuna74 »

weberer wrote: post #261
MichaelZuo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could a route busy enough to completely fill a train every few hours not justify some kind of regularly scheduled service?

Most cities at least have night busses. Tokyo has 0 options after midnight.

There are taxis and they are pretty cheap (compared to western Europe and the US). It is not a replacement but you CAN get home if you are out late.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#480

Post by alephnerd »

SenHeng wrote: post #471
codethief wrote: post #455

> In 1982, Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone started to privatize the railways. Unlike other countries, Japan simply returned to the traditional private railway model of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries: tracks, trains, stations, and yards were owned by vertically integrated regional conglomerates. There are substantial advantages to vertical integration. Railways are a closed system that has to be planned…

A problem with privatising the railways is that unprofitable routes, ie rural villages, are deprioritised or simply shut down. My village gets 1 train every 1.5 hours, and none between 3pm and 7pm. For several years now, there has been discussion of shutting down the upper half of the route. So every household has 2 or more cars.

That's the same in most of Japan. Most people who over-idealize rail transit in Japan only visited or stayed short term within the Yamanote Line.

It's a great country, but using Central Tokyo as a frame of reference as most people on HN do is the equivalent of using Manhattan or Central London as your frame of reference for the US or UK.

Major urban areas like Osaka, Nagoya, and even most of Greater Tokyo are extremely car dependent with plentiful parking as well - let alone smaller towns.

Post reply on HN