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Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

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Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#471

Post by lelanthran »

gitgud wrote: post #445
lelanthran wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't worry about the returns, you won't get any. He was focusing on value, not returns. That being said, his take is still a dumb take - if you focus on creating value you may not capture any of that value for yourself. If you don't capture that value, someone else certainly will. The age of creating value for the public good is well and truly over - any value you create for the public good in the form of i…

Well yeah, business has literally always extracted value from open source software, that’s one of the main benefits of it… (although license violations have been unprecedented with AI) “Creating value” in open source has never been about capturing value at all, it’s always been about volunteering and giving back, and recognising the unfathomable amount of open-source software that runs the modern world we live in “Ca…

> “Creating value” in open source has never been about capturing value at all, it’s always been about volunteering and giving back

I disagree; the GPL has always been transactional. You capture the value in your product by ensuring improvements come back to you. The user "pays" by not being able to close the product off.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#472

Post by rendaw »

devsda wrote: post #427
DangitBobby wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the point of a job if not the results? How can you be responsible for your actions but not the consequences of your actions?

> What is the point of a job if not the results? The idea is to not fret over results and give your best with dedication. E.g. An athlete shouldn't be worrying about their results while playing and should focus on the play. > How can you be responsible for your actions but not the consequences of your actions I only mentioned control of consequences not responsibility. It doesn't mean you are absolved of responsibili…

Yeah, I think GP is right and this all feels like word play to me.

Let's say you're making your ideal wood chair for your living room. You're "fretting" over getting the arms, legs perfectly aligned, surfaces smooth, identical chamfers, etc. But fretting is bad and makes it hard to get anything done so you stop. Then you end up with a roughshod chair.

You shouldn't "fret" too much, but you also shouldn't "fret" too little. You should "fret" exactly the right amount which is... tautologically true, and not particularly insightful. Giving your best is committing yourself to fretting.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#473

Post by zozbot234 »

lelanthran wrote: post #471
gitgud wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, business has literally always extracted value from open source software, that’s one of the main benefits of it… (although license violations have been unprecedented with AI) “Creating value” in open source has never been about capturing value at all, it’s always been about volunteering and giving back, and recognising the unfathomable amount of open-source software that runs the modern world we live in “Ca…

> “Creating value” in open source has never been about capturing value at all, it’s always been about volunteering and giving back I disagree; the GPL has always been transactional. You capture the value in your product by ensuring improvements come back to you. The user "pays" by not being able to close the product off.

> You capture the value in your product by ensuring improvements come back to you. The user "pays" by not being able to close the product off.

If clean-room re-engineering a MIT code base starting from a GPL one is legit, then AI has just made that the status quo for everything.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#474

Post by lelanthran »

zozbot234 wrote: post #473
lelanthran wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Creating value” in open source has never been about capturing value at all, it’s always been about volunteering and giving back I disagree; the GPL has always been transactional. You capture the value in your product by ensuring improvements come back to you. The user "pays" by not being able to close the product off.

> You capture the value in your product by ensuring improvements come back to you. The user "pays" by not being able to close the product off. If clean-room re-engineering a MIT code base starting from a GPL one is legit, then AI has just made that the status quo for everything.

> If clean-room re-engineering a MIT code base starting from a GPL one is legit, then AI has just made that the status quo for everything.

I agree; this is what I meant by "the value is being captured by someone else".

GPL provides the author with a specific value - you get back improvements. Using AI to launder that IP so that improvements don't have to be upstreamed is effectively capturing the value.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#475

Post by roncesvalles »

harimau777 wrote: post #336
keiferski wrote: post #318

As is often the case, the title is a bit misleading and implies a universality that I don’t think the author intended. He is specifically talking about AI, and saying (in my understanding) that you shouldn’t worry too much about whether your specific thing will be overwritten by AI, as long as you focus on actually creating true, real value with your work. I agree with that completely and can see it happening in my o…

That still seems super naive, at least if its extended to software engineering. Companies already treat software engineers like disposable cogs to be burnt out and discarded. I don't see how AI will improve that.

>Companies already treat software engineers like disposable cogs to be burnt out and discarded.

I'm sorry but this is simply false. Nothing has really changed on the ground for SWEs. Nothing at all. Compensation is still sky high. Interviews are still the same. Career progression is the same. Everything takes the same amount of time. It's all business as usual for software engineering as a profession. AI is just one more tool in the toolkit; some devs use it, some don't. No engineering org has fallen for any hype in a meaningful way. Ultimately SWE teams on the frontline are busy doing what they always do, mostly in the way that they've always been doing.

The only thing that's changed in a remarkable way is how disconnected the rhetoric on social media is from ground reality. Anyone telling you AI is even replacing 5% of SWEs in the industry is a jobless hack.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#476

Post by mentalgear »

ap99 wrote: post #397
StilesCrisis wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 2018 Tesla owner I strongly disagree with the idea that Elon's got a track record of success. The Model Y was their last successful product and it's just a stretched Model 3. FSD is not there. Robotaxi is an embarrassment. Cybertruck failed to deliver the gigacasted exoskeleton and shipped at double the original price point. Tesla has lost its way completely. (Also, Twitter has lost users and revenue ever since…

Ok now say three things that Elon has accomplished successfully in the past few years. If you can't then you're just speaking from emotion because they obviously exist.

You mean the tele-operated "autonomous Robots" ? Also, I'm waiting for >10 years now for his (really!) self-driving cars he promised would be just about 2 years away - every 2 years.

SpaceX is what gives him leverage but the success of the reusable rockets are the engineers behind it - he's just the ketamine-driven hype-man that drives the stock via publicity now.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#477

Post by vasco »

camillomiller wrote: post #348
vasco wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what I said. You seem to assume people have no ability to change anything. I said people should focus on the things they can change. > Disagree. You can still get fucking angry at how they’re capable of fooling others because of the skewed incentives we built in our capitalistic society This is what I replied to. You cannot change that other people want to fool others. You can decide to fool others though…

Funnily enough I totally agree with you in principle. Though I believe we are witnessing a constant erosion of these alternatives constantly and organically at the hand of the owner class. What you say assumes that the solutions you are mentioning are still viable. Let’s say I agree and decide to join USaid to do good. Elon fucking Musk comes in, guts it, indirectly causes thousands to lose help and die. My answer to…

If you're a random worker of a huge organization and it gets bought or co-opted, yes you should jog on. Go help someone else that hasn't been co-opted.

This is why even though I'm generally a progressive I'm against unions. The solution to bad owners is everyone quitting their company. This was not feasible in a town with a single factory but is very feasible today. Quit working for bad people and bad people will change or become powerless. Prolong the ability for them to keep workers and they will keep being exactly as they are.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#478

Post by dataflow »

roncesvalles wrote: post #475
harimau777 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still seems super naive, at least if its extended to software engineering. Companies already treat software engineers like disposable cogs to be burnt out and discarded. I don't see how AI will improve that.

>Companies already treat software engineers like disposable cogs to be burnt out and discarded. I'm sorry but this is simply false. Nothing has really changed on the ground for SWEs. Nothing at all. Compensation is still sky high. Interviews are still the same. Career progression is the same. Everything takes the same amount of time. It's all business as usual for software engineering as a profession. AI is just one…

> I'm sorry but this is simply false. Nothing has really changed on the ground for SWEs. Nothing at all. Compensation is still sky high. Interviews are still the same. Career progression is the same. Everything takes the same amount of time.

That's not remotely what I'm hearing or seeing from those who are on the job market.

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#479

Post by camillomiller »

vasco wrote: post #477
camillomiller wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough I totally agree with you in principle. Though I believe we are witnessing a constant erosion of these alternatives constantly and organically at the hand of the owner class. What you say assumes that the solutions you are mentioning are still viable. Let’s say I agree and decide to join USaid to do good. Elon fucking Musk comes in, guts it, indirectly causes thousands to lose help and die. My answer to…

If you're a random worker of a huge organization and it gets bought or co-opted, yes you should jog on. Go help someone else that hasn't been co-opted. This is why even though I'm generally a progressive I'm against unions. The solution to bad owners is everyone quitting their company. This was not feasible in a town with a single factory but is very feasible today. Quit working for bad people and bad people will cha…

Have you ever had to pay rent or feed children?

Re: Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns

#480

Post by FearNotDaniel »

Krei-se wrote: post #252
JonChesterfield wrote: post #201

This is a trap for engineers. If you don't worry about the returns, you won't get any. There are circumstances where that is fine. Be sure you're in one of them first.

Maybe in the first 10 years of your career, after that you totally have the skills needed to create value from nothing - something no value extracting actor will ever be able to learn. Might take a while but the milk surely becomes butter. His point is valid, maybe your pov is a bit clouded because his baseline is quite high (fame, money) but its not that different at a lower baseline. You bring 1.x to the world that…

Who creates value in the art market? Is it the artist who creates the work? Or the dealer who persuades the buyers that the work has value? As a builder I’m attracted to the fantasy that I can create value with my bare hands just by writing code (or telling the AI to write the code), without needing any of those horrible slimy people in suits to build a business around it. Rock n roll man. If you build it, they will come. Is that the reality though? Or just survival bias based on the fact that a few geeks got lucky during the original dotcom boom when they had no competition from actual businessmen?
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