Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think Meta "turned things around" by bypassing privacy controls Why would Apple be complicit on this for years?
Apple has allowed Facebook, TikTok etc. to track users across devices AND device resets via the iCloud Keychain API. When you log into FB on any account on any device, then install FB on a new device, or even after you erase the device, they know it's you even before you log in. Because the info is tied to your Apple iCloud account. And there's no way for users to see or delete what data other companies have stored a…
Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
471–480 of 529 posts
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#472Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The story that humans have access to some pure deductive engine and LLMs are just faking it with statistics might be flattering to humans more than it’s accurate. Your point rings true with most human reasoning most of the time. Still, at least some humans do have the capability to run that deductive engine, and it seems to be a key part (though not the only part) of scientific and mathematical reasoning. Even info…
When people do math or rigorous deductive reasoning, are we sure they aren't just pattern matching with a set of carefully chosen interacting patterns that have been refined by ancient philosophers as being useful patterns that produce consistent results when applied in correctly patterned ways?
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't understand this view. How I see it the fundamental bottleneck to AGI is continual learning and backpropagation. Models today are static, and human brains don't learn or adapt themselves with anything close to backpropagation. Even with continuous backpropagation and "learning", enriching the training data, so called online-learning, the limitations will not disappear. The LLMs will not be able to conclude t…
Humans are notoriously bad at formal logic. The Wason selection task is the classic example: most people fail a simple conditional reasoning problem unless it’s dressed up in familiar social context, like catching cheaters. That looks a lot more like pattern matching than rule application. Kahneman’s whole framework points the same direction. Most of what people call “reasoning” is fast, associative, pattern-based. T…
Humans can produce new concepts and then symbolize them for communication purposes. The meaning of concepts is grounded in operational definitions - in a manner that anyone can understand because they are operational, and can be reproduced in theory by anyone.
For example, euclid invented the concepts of a point, angle and line to operationally represent geometry in the real world. These concepts were never "there" to begin with. They were created from scratch to "build" a world-model that helps humans navigate the real world.
Euclid went outside his "training distribution" to invent point, angle, and line. Humans have this ability to construct new concepts by interaction with the real world - bringing the "unknown" into the "known" so-to-speak. Animals have this too via evolution, but it is unclear if animals can symbolize their concepts and skills to the extent that humans can.
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple has allowed Facebook, TikTok etc. to track users across devices AND device resets via the iCloud Keychain API. When you log into FB on any account on any device, then install FB on a new device, or even after you erase the device, they know it's you even before you log in. Because the info is tied to your Apple iCloud account. And there's no way for users to see or delete what data other companies have stored a…
Is there a write up of this somewhere? Curious to read more...
That would be fine if users could SEE what has been stored and DELETE it WITHOUT going through the app and trusting it to show you everything honestly.
What's even worse is that it silently persists across DEVICE reinstalls.
Erase and reset your iPhone/iPad. Sign into the same iCloud account. Reinstall FB. Your login info will still be there.
Buy a new iPhone/iPad. Sign into the same iCloud account. Reinstall FB. Your login info will still be there.
And nope, no one seems to care.
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#475I feel like I'm the only one not getting the world models hype. We've been talking about them for decades now, and all of it is still theoretical. Meanwhile LLMs and text foundation models showed up, proved to be insanely effective, took over the industry, and people are still going "nah LLMs aren't it, world models will be the gold standard, just wait."
I think "world models" is the wrong thing to focus on when contrasting the "animal intelligence" approach (which is what LeCun is striving for) with LLMs, especially since "world model" means different things to different people. Some people would call the internal abstractions/representations that an LLM learns during training a "world model" (of sorts). The fundamental problem with today's LLMs that will prevent th…
I am of the opinion that imagination and creativity comes from emotion, hence a machine that cannot "feel" will never be truly intelligent.
One can go ahead and ask, but you are just a lump of meat, if you can feel, then so a computer of similar structure can.
If we assume that physical reality is fundamental, then that might make sense. But what if consciousness is fundamental and reality plays on consciousness?
Then randomness, and in-turn ideas come from the attributes of the fundamental reality that we are in.
I ll try to simplify it. Imagine you having an idea that extends your life for a day. Then from all the possible worlds, in some worlds, you find yourselves living in the next day (in others you are dead). But this "idea" you had, was just one among the infinite sea of possibilities, and your consciousness inside one such world observes you having that idea and survive for a day!
If you want to create a machine that can do that, it implies that you should be a consciousness inside a world in it (because the machine cannot pick valid worlds from infinite samples, but just enables consciousness to exists such suitable worlds). So it cannot be done in our reality!
Mayyyyy be "Quantum Darwinism" is what I am trying to describe here..
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
Humans are notoriously bad at formal logic. The Wason selection task is the classic example: most people fail a simple conditional reasoning problem unless it’s dressed up in familiar social context, like catching cheaters. That looks a lot more like pattern matching than rule application. Kahneman’s whole framework points the same direction. Most of what people call “reasoning” is fast, associative, pattern-based. T…
> But then again, how often do humans actually reason outside their own “training distribution”? Most human insight happens within well-practiced domains. Humans can produce new concepts and then symbolize them for communication purposes. The meaning of concepts is grounded in operational definitions - in a manner that anyone can understand because they are operational, and can be reproduced in theory by anyone. For…
Sure, but the question is how often this actually happens versus how often people are doing something closer to recombination and pattern-matching within familiar territory. The point was about the base rate of genuine novel reasoning in everyday human cognition, and I don't think this addresses that.
> Euclid invented the concepts of a point, angle and line to operationally represent geometry in the real world. These concepts were never "there" to begin with.
This isn't really true though. Egyptian and Babylonian surveyors were working with geometric concepts long before Euclid. What Euclid did was axiomatize and systematize knowledge that was already in wide practical use. That's a real achievement, but it's closer to "sophisticated refinement within a well-practiced domain" than to reasoning from scratch outside a training distribution. If anything the example supports the parent comment.
There's also something off about saying points and lines were "never there." Humans have spatial perception. Geometric intuitions come from embodied experience of edges, boundaries, trajectories. Formalizing those intuitions is real work, but it's not the same as generating something with no prior basis.
The deeper issue is you're pointing to one of the most extraordinary intellectual achievements in human history and treating it as representative of human cognition generally. The whole point, drawing on Kahneman, is that most of what we call reasoning is fast associative pattern-matching, and that the slow deliberate stuff is rarer and more error-prone than people assume. The fact that Euclid existed doesn't tell us much about what the other billions of humans are doing cognitively on a Tuesday afternoon.
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#477Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#478Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have to understand the strategy of all the other players: Build attention-grabbing, monetizable models that subsidize (at least in part) the run up to AGI. Nobody is trying to one-shot AGI. They're grinding and leveling up while (1) developing core competencies around every aspect of the problem domain and (2) winning users. I don't know if Meta is doing a good job of this, but Google, Anthropic, and OpenAI are.…
I mean, Sutskevar and Carmack are trying to one-shot AGI. We just don't talk about them as much as we do the labs with products because their labs aren't selling products.
Re: Yann LeCun raises $1B to build AI that understands the physical world
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
When someone tells you "you can have this if you pay me", they don't mean "you can also have it if you don't pay". They are implicitly but clearly indicating you gotta pay. It's as simple as that. In common use, "if x then y" frequently implies "if not x then not y". Pretending that it's some sort of a cognitive defect to interpret it this way is silly.
In the original studies, most people made an error that can't be explained by that misunderstanding: they failed to select the card showing 'not y'.
> Decoding analyses of neural activity further reveal significant above chance decoding accuracy for negated adjectives within 600 ms from adjective onset, suggesting that negation does not invert the representation of adjectives (i.e., “not bad” represented as “good”)[...]
From: Negation mitigates rather than inverts the neural representations of adjectives
At: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...