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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#471

Post by pino999 »

linkregister wrote: post #452
sowbug wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, but I doubt the fine could have been ethically higher. Domino's drivers killed dozens of people in speed-related accidents before they ended their 30-minute guarantee. I don't think our society is ready for the combination of automatic enforcement and truly punitive penalties. We readily demonize the accused; just having your mugshot taken can end your employability. Yet many of us break laws daily…

It is understandable that someone who only lived in the United States or a low-enforcement place would have this world view. I'm more sanguine about the trajectory of our society. Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, etc, have well-enforced traffic laws. Speeding is the exception rather than the rule, unlike the United States, where one can expect the flow of traffic to be 10-20 miles per hour over the posted li…

In the Netherlands fines are insane. If you pick up your garbage bin two hours too late from the street corner, you pay 210 euros. On the other side, if you sell drugs to kids and have a weapon, nobody touches you.

Yes, you can sometimes walk around legally with a beer bottle here.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#472

Post by triceratops »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #470
triceratops wrote: post #210

Red light camera fines, like all sin taxes, should be made revenue neutral.

Real world, sin taxes lead to sin.

Explain. Is this like "guys walking with rifles in the woods cause deer"?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#473

Post by CWuestefeld »

unselect5917 wrote: post #463
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor." Make it a tiny % of net worth, with a modest minimum and watch EVERYONE obey. Or at least something meaningful to everyone, or don't make it a fine. Use some other carrot or s…

But that makes wildly different incentives to enforce, depending on the target. We all know this stuff is all about revenue enhancement, and in that capacity, the targets will become the whales.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#474

Post by buzzerbetrayed »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #402
gus_massa wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the great patio11 said: > Raise the prices. Then raise the prices. Then when you're done with that, raise the prices.

Sure. Do it as an increasing-upon-recurrence, two part fee though. 1st offence = base fee 2nd offence = base fee + minimal % of wealth fee 3rd offence = base fee + higher % of wealth fee offences thereafter = goto 3rd offence until some breaking point condition like gaol/jail. Otherwise the rich will happily pay to do whatever the hell they want.

How about you prove your claim by providing some evidence that the richer you are the more speeding tickets you get. Otherwise you're solving for a problem that doesn’t exist.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#475

Post by bobthepanda »

valiant55 wrote: post #418
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

PA did this with construction zone cameras. I'm not sure where that landed because its been a while since I've seen one. I successfully appealed my ticket to the magistrate. It initially started as a pilot program and the law requires signage which during the pilot was quite inconspicuous. After the launch the sign was changed to a tiny little thing, about 1/5 the size of the pilot program. I was going 5 over the red…

The problem is that you need to have decent legislators and hold them accountable, and unfortunately we seem to be backsliding on making that happen.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#476

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sowbug wrote: post #298
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

I don't see how that is viable when the fine for late pickup is $6/minute.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#477

Post by matheusmoreira »

SteveNuts wrote: post #469
matheusmoreira wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. Traffic lights are just mutexes. They are there to stop traffic so that other traffic may pass safely. There's no point if there aren't any other cars. Obviously anyone running a light on a busy intersection deserves to get fined but if you know the terrain, have good visibility into the road where the other traffic comes from and can clearly see there are no vehicles present, running the red light is utt…

I can’t tell if you’re joking or seriously trying to justify running red lights.

Use your eyes, your situational awareness and your best judgement. The traffic light is not god's word.

In my neighborhood there used to be a traffic light that would be red for a long time despite not usefully regulating any traffic whatsoever. It stopped traffic despite the fact no other traffic could possibly conflict with it. People realized this and routinely ran that light with zero consequences. At some point the city realized it too and redesigned the traffic controls so that the light would be green in this situation.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#478

Post by thegrim33 »

mulmen wrote: post #407
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I’m not sure if it was COVID or the social movements around the same time like defund the police. Here in Seattle when defunding the police was suggested the police department threatened to close the precinct in a large residential area. Basically they attempted to extort the voters. I think the police have realized that crime is good for them because the more of it voters see the more they think police are needed.

Vilify them, defund them, restrict them, reduce the number of officers to the lowest level in 30 years, and then when crime increases in the next few years .. was it maybe because of everything that was just done? No, that's not it, it's a grand conspiracy across every police officer in Seattle who coordinated/decided to be evil together and intentionally let crime spread. Yup, that all checks out.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#479

Post by mh- »

sejje wrote: post #324
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I worked in childcare about 20 years ago, and we charged $1 per minute late. We had to keep two staff there, and they would split the fine. Many times we got stiffed. Edit: for reference, our fee was about $14/day to keep the kid, so it was a pretty stiff penalty.

Well, If the staff got stiffed on the fee "many times", and the parents were allowed to bring their kid back.. the place didn't charge $1 per minute late. They just bluffed and got called on it.

(apologies for the immediate edit, changed my wording)

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#480

Post by brigandish »

sejje wrote: post #324
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I worked in childcare about 20 years ago, and we charged $1 per minute late. We had to keep two staff there, and they would split the fine. Many times we got stiffed. Edit: for reference, our fee was about $14/day to keep the kid, so it was a pretty stiff penalty.

> Many times we got stiffed.

I understand that you could not keep the child till you were paid (kidnapping and ransom shouldn't be a business plan!), but you could refuse them future service until they paid.

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