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Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

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Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#471

Post by someguyiguess »

olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

This has to be sarcasm. Either that or you have never used KDE or Gnome even once in your life. No DE for Linux is anywhere near as polished as the DE in Mac OS. You have to spend hours customizing KDE or CFCE to get them to function even halfway near what an average user would expect. Gnome is okay but so bloated and even more opinionated than MacOS or Windows.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#472

Post by someguyiguess »

estebank wrote: post #422
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to compare on the basis of microissues like this one, then note that KDE Plasma has exactly the same issue with the resizing area of rounded corner windows aa the one pointed by TFA.

On the other hand, it does have Alt+right click & drag as a mechanism that doesn't require any manual dexterity to hit arbitrary edges.

Oh yes. Alt+right click + drag. How intuitive. (not)

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#473

Post by idle_zealot »

staticassertion wrote: post #465
idle_zealot wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that a full screen window creates a whole new virtual desktop is hilarious and I dare you to justify it. I can kind of see the idea here. The alternative is that all the other windows in the working desktop get hidden behind the fullscreen window. That's pretty bad UX. I personally avoid it on Linux by always moving a window to its own desktop before fullscreening it. That said, the implementation is awful…

> The alternative is that all the other windows in the working desktop get hidden behind the fullscreen window. That's pretty bad UX. How? It means I could have a full screen video and then overlay something smaller over it, or maintain my alt-tab behavior as it plays in the background, etc. I'd maintain the same UX. Why would full screen have such a weird behavior?

You're right that it's more consistent to have windows behave as you describe, and Windows and Linux both treat fullscreen windows this way. I posit that Apple cares more about not hiding windows behind others than it does consistency. This also shows with their new window placement algorithm that results in an absolute mess of windows all partially occluded but with some corner or edge peeking out of the stack for a user to visually identify and click to focus/being-to-top. Compare to Windows that (at least when I last used it) opens new windows at a slight diagonal offset from the last focused window, almost like building a neat deck of cards. Apple's ethos is also on display in the design of Stage Manager, which groups windows into these messy clumps and creates a visible shelf to swap between window bundles. Everything is optimized for hunt-and-peck visual users. If you're the type to organize your windows and workflows then you're fighting the system.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#474

Post by someguyiguess »

doodpants wrote: post #344
amelius wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated. Linux is the polar opposite of that. People used to say the latter is bad, but it turns out the former is way worse (many hackers of course already knew this). > Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either. But at this point grandma and grandpa are the only ones I'd recommend to use Apple devices.

Opinionated design was great back when Apple's Human Interface Guidelines were based on concrete user testing and accessibility principles. The farther we get from the Steve Jobs era, the more their UI design is based on whatever they think looks pretty, with usability concerns taking a back seat.

And ironically, it has also gotten far less pretty. Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger was beautiful. Tahoe is flat and generic looking.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#475

Post by tremon »

user2722 wrote: post #247
sigmoid10 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gnome window title bars are obnoxiously thick and useless by default tho. I've found that Unity or even just Windows like styling in Gnome is a lot more respectful to your screen real estate.

It definitely needs improvement but for touchscreens it is good.

Luckily, 95% of Linux devices actually have touchscreens.

The sad bit is where you realize that GNOME is typically only found on the other 5%.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#476

Post by bsimpson »

staticassertion wrote: post #466
bsimpson wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago, they changed the behavior of the green button to be "fullscreen into a separate space." As someone who never uses spaces, this is never what I want. You can escape it by moving your cursor to the top edge of the screen and clicking the green button on the titlebar that appears to exit fullscreen.

In this case, because I had docked my laptop, the entire window moved to a virtual desktop that didn't actually map to a real desktop. Meaning that the video call continued in a virtual desktop that I literally could not see, that I could not mouse over. I don't know if that's just a multiple-monitor bug or whatever but the behavior is stupid even without that failure mode.

Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. You can three-finger-swipe between spaces. I know there's a keyboard equivalent, but you'd have to look it up.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#477

Post by staticassertion »

bfbf wrote: post #467
staticassertion wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using a Mac basically full time for years now, due to work. It's easily the worst UX and it's sort of shocking, after decades of hearing "it just works" or whatever. Hidden windows, hidden desktops , obscure keyboard shortcuts, etc. I actually don't even know how to use the mac for the most part, I've learned to live in the terminal. I contrast this with Linux where I can just... idk, browse files? Where wi…

MacOS definitely has its issues but this just makes it sound like you have different expectations of how an OS should work. Different isn’t always bad. Hiding applications is a pretty key concept in MacOS. Shortcuts are pretty straightforward? Cmd+H to hide, Cmd+Q to quit. Spaces aren’t hidden- there’s lots of ways to access them, but it seems you haven’t bothered to learn them. In your example pressing ctrl+right wo…

I call it "alt tab" because that's how my brain maps the keyboard. The reality is simple - I struggled going from Windows to Ubuntu about 20 years ago but ultimately made it to the other side knowing how to use both well. With macs, I didn't. 10 years later and all of my adaptations are to avoid the operating system. In 10 years the main thing I've learned is how to get myself out of a jam and stick to the parts of the OS that don't feel like shit. I mean, it's not like I haven't learned these things, I know how to gesture, I know how to exit full screen, etc, it's not like I didn't ever learn, I'm explaining that the experience was dog shit.

Anyone is free to claim that I just didn't try, or didn't give it a fair shake, or perhaps I'm just some idiot who doesn't know computers or whatever.

Maybe I just think an OS should work differently, but okay? I've never said that I have some sort of access to a platonic ideal of objective operating systems and that macs don't meet it. I'm saying that I think it's bad and I gave examples of why. And I think I can easily appeal to my experiences seeing others use the OS - I don't think they find anything you're talking about appealing either.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#478

Post by staticassertion »

hbn wrote: post #468
staticassertion wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used multiple desktops before. I love virtual desktops. They really shouldn't be confusing. It's a testament to the bad UX of macs that they are. The fact that a full screen window creates a whole new virtual desktop is hilarious and I dare you to justify it. Appeals to "Windows is bad" or whatever mean nothing to me. Stupid comments like "get good" mean nothing to me.

It sounds like you don't actually want the app in fullscreen. Fullscreen is "I only want to be in this one app window with no distractions." I pretty much only use it for watching videos. If you want the window taking up the entire screen while staying on the desktop, double click the window chrome and it'll expand to fill the screen. And if you want the dock not taking up space, there's a setting to auto hide the do…

> It sounds like you don't actually want the app in fullscreen. Fullscreen is "I only want to be in this one app window with no distractions." I pretty much only use it for watching videos.

I do want that. Every other OS has no issue with what I'm describing. Who said I don't want distractions? I want the video content to be expanded as widely as possible, that is what "full screen" means. Who said "full screen" means a separate desktop?

Ridiculous tbh

> And if you want the dock not taking up space, there's a setting to auto hide the dock (which I always enable)

Yes, me too.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#479

Post by staticassertion »

bsimpson wrote: post #476
staticassertion wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, because I had docked my laptop, the entire window moved to a virtual desktop that didn't actually map to a real desktop. Meaning that the video call continued in a virtual desktop that I literally could not see, that I could not mouse over. I don't know if that's just a multiple-monitor bug or whatever but the behavior is stupid even without that failure mode.

Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. You can three-finger-swipe between spaces. I know there's a keyboard equivalent, but you'd have to look it up.

> Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device.

I think that's really bad design. Is that even controversial?

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#480

Post by olivierestsage »

someguyiguess wrote: post #471
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

This has to be sarcasm. Either that or you have never used KDE or Gnome even once in your life. No DE for Linux is anywhere near as polished as the DE in Mac OS. You have to spend hours customizing KDE or CFCE to get them to function even halfway near what an average user would expect. Gnome is okay but so bloated and even more opinionated than MacOS or Windows.

This is definitely not the case, and I invite anyone reading this comment to install a Linux distribution themselves in a VM or something to find out via direct experience. Fedora is a good place to start in my opinion.
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