Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 736 posts

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#471

Post by komali2 »

ryanjshaw wrote: post #467
misja111 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People seem to think only money has value. Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread? What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax pa…

I also wonder why the tax payers who care can’t contribute directly to a fund, and keep government out of entirely.

Then it would be a popularity contest and depend on the artists' ability to market themselves in a capitalist space. The one with the best TikTok channel would get the money. That doesn't lead to having diverse, interesting, and challenging art.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#472

Post by komali2 »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #454
JKCalhoun wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people get upset if they think there is someone, somewhere getting a "handout". It's easy to channel indignation toward those people and not, say, their corporate masters that seem to hold everyone's strings.

What’s “corporate masters” got to do with a transaction from taxes and inflation (stolen value on your savings and spending power) to a handout?

If you think taxation is theft, wait till I show you some fat margins on labor value.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#474

Post by komali2 »

b112 wrote: post #396
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

All form of welfare should keep a person alive, but never comfortable. Living in a one room dwelling, with a shared bathroom is unpleasant, but safe, warm, and has a bed. Having enough for basic food, but no luxuries. My point is, welfare(not disability, welfare) should sustain. Keep safe. Alive. Free from elements. But absolutely be something a normal person wants to escape from. And there will always be those happy…

> All form of welfare should keep a person alive, but never comfortable.

Why? We are well beyond the scarcity that would require this.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#475

Post by xienze »

jasonkester wrote: post #391
joe_mamba wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've never met anyone in any setting that complained about receiving too much money. If you ask pensioners if they should get higher pensions, they'll say YES. If you ask students if they should get more subsidies, they'll say YES. If you ask unemployed people if they should raise unemployment benefits, they'll say YES. If you ask people on minimum wage if they should raise the minimum wage, they'll say YES. Ev…

I'm pretty sure I'm on record here on HN complaining about receiving covid relief checks that I don't need, and that I would much rather that money went to people who were actually struggling. Personally, I want people on the high end of earnings (such as myself) to be taxed more so that a basic income scheme like this can be available for anybody who wants it. Charge me an extra $300/month and give it to some random…

> Personally, I want people on the high end of earnings (such as myself) to be taxed more so that a basic income scheme like this can be available for anybody who wants it. Charge me an extra $300/month and give it to some random 24 year old so that he can smoke weed and play his guitar. He'll get more use out of it than I will.

You know you CAN donate money to the government any time you want, right? Do you do that? Practice what you preach, don't hide behind "oh if only the government made me do it."

> One day, that kid will decide that living in a crap shared apartment is getting a bit old and he'll grow some ambition, get a real job, and eventually start earning enough to help sponsor the next round of deadbeats.

This is the critical problem you and others like you make: assuming that everyone is a reasonable, honest, ambitious person just like you are. Many people -- not all, but a big enough proportion to be a problem -- aren't. And when we make it possible to actually make "do drugs and play videogames all day" a viable lifestyle, there's loads of people who will take the government up on the offer. And remember, they can vote themselves UBI raises.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#476

Post by Citizen_Lame »

Daub wrote: post #234
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> crap art that no one wanted. Through the kunstuitleen they leased and sold art to galleries and private homes. It was like a library for contemporary art which paid struggling artists and their families, while also exposing the public to more art. To say that "no one wanted" is a massively overblown. Thousands of art pieces lived happily in many Dutch homes.

OK, maybe my use of that phrase was a bit ill-judged. However, aside from supporting artists, what did the initiative achieve? Keeping artists off the dole should not be, IMHO, a goal in itself. The reputation of Dutch culture at the time was not brilliant, though neither was it bad. A strategic attitude would have been more effective... maybe target one or two artists and promote them. The Young British Artists (YBA…

but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health... what have the Romans ever done for us?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#477

Post by komali2 »

philipallstar wrote: post #335
pwim wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Not quite. Money is how we describe instrumental value, and occasionally allocation priority. Personal attachment and moral worth are also terms often used interchangeably with "value," though in my opinion that should stop and we should all simply never use the word "value" again because so many meanings have collapsed into it.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#478

Post by komali2 »

roenxi wrote: post #331
tappio wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false assumption. We will only know retrospectively whether it was valuable or not. 1. She gets better all the time, and might be super popular in the future 2. Many writings became relevant only long after the death of the author

A lot of those relevant writings became relevant because of the horrible experiences the author went through forged them into an interesting writer. If we're assuming that we only know retrospectively whether the writing is important then the best course of action would be for people to write as a hobby and make choices that are likely (rather than unlikely) to lead to a comfortable life. Particularly in this current…

> A lot of those relevant writings became relevant because of the horrible experiences the author went through forged them into an interesting writer.

Sometimes artists suffer, but it's mostly a legend at this point. Plenty of great artists have perfectly fine lives. Look at like, any modern fantasy or sci fi author.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#479

Post by komali2 »

jcarrano wrote: post #439
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> Society has not disintegrated. Has art improved in any measure?

Yes! Can you prove me wrong?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#480

Post by AdamConwayIE »

misja111 wrote: post #431
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> People seem to think only money has value. Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread? What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax pa…

You don't have to wonder whether or not it returns value to the tax payer. The Irish government already monitored the pilot program for two years, publishing all of the details and findings. [1]

"The headline finding from this social CBA is that for every €1 of public money invested in the pilot, society received €1.39 in return"

This came about as a mixture of greater economic activity from participants, cultural impacts that saw public-facing artist activities increase, and improvements to wellbeing of participants that reduced their requirement for psychological interventions by the state. The state also predicts that the further roll-out of this program will benefit consumers with lower prices for artistic works, as there will be more supply overall.

The scheme has been quite popular here in Ireland. Given the history of Ireland when it comes to art (both in the sense of spoken and written word, and in other mediums), it makes sense to introduce a scheme like this to safeguard and uplift those who produce art.

[1] https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-culture-communications-a...

Post reply on HN