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Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

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Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#471
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics are different because the industries are fundamentally different. Software is never "finished" the way a building is finished. More features can always be added to software. If those new features create new product lines and attract new revenue, then the software engineers' salaries are more than paying for themselves. But, this obviously carries risk, that the new thing you develop won't be worth as mu…

> Software is never "finished" the way a building is finished. On the contrary, it absolutely can be, in both directions. Software can absolutely be "feature complete", and in the case of many products it would have been an improvement to say "we're done now" and switch from developing new features to maintenance-only mode, dealing only with API changes and new laws. Some examples of where it should be "done" by some…

we should get to the state of software being finished.

then for live games etc -- release servers maybe after 7 years so people can run their own servers for games

I think we can all agree 7 years is a good enough timeline for games to have milked all the revenue they need.

37Signals still have early versions of Basecamp running

Jetbrains does the same thing with perpetual licenses etc

SAAS does not mean software can't be finished

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as: “This is the price for me to do work I don’t want to do, but will do, if you make it impossible for me to say no.” It’s not about justifying the rate, that’s the wrong way to think of it.

And if no one takes your price, you fail as a business. I think that's the concern. There's not a lot of vectors I feel I can jump in to say "I'll do this for 1000/hr" without getting some bulging eyes. Because I don't have the credibility to back that up. How to get credibilty? Well, you gotta be in industry. The thing the two consultants here are besmirching. You can't win.

1. Keep a portfolio.

2. Make and maintain connections.

3. Be pleasant to interact with.

4. Know what value you provide.

5. Find out what value people need.

If you're someone like Steve Jobs then #3 is a bit optional because #4 is increased, both in truth and in arrogant overestimation.

The hardest part of this really is #4, because most people either get too cocky and overconfident in the value they provide in general, or they are so overcome with imposter syndrome that they believe they offer practically nothing, so they do almost entirely open source work and fail to start a consultancy.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To summarize what I put in another response: I personally care less about holding the multi millionaire into account (though I wouldn't mind it at all) and more about making sure employees over such deals aren't lied to and then have lives upended at the drop of a hat. Workers and customers do not in fact "know what the fate's gonna be" and that's the problem to address. I won't repeat the same usual solutions again,…

> Workers and customers do not in fact "know what the fate's gonna be" and that's the problem to address. 1. Bending Spoons model is known, everybody knows as soon it's announced 2. The company belongs to the shareholders and founders. It's them making the decision.

#2 is why the government, via laws, needs to establish employment rights, such as redundancy payments when someone is terminated due to their position being no longer required.

Those rights need to show up in company balance sheets as a contingent liability.

That applies when the company is acquired as well.

The employment of a company need to be either paid out to employees at net present value, or need to be transferred to the new owners as part of the sale.

In the US, with employment sponsored health insurance, it's even more important.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as: “This is the price for me to do work I don’t want to do, but will do, if you make it impossible for me to say no.” It’s not about justifying the rate, that’s the wrong way to think of it.

And if no one takes your price, you fail as a business. I think that's the concern. There's not a lot of vectors I feel I can jump in to say "I'll do this for 1000/hr" without getting some bulging eyes. Because I don't have the credibility to back that up. How to get credibilty? Well, you gotta be in industry. The thing the two consultants here are besmirching. You can't win.

> And if no one takes your price, you fail as a business.

Vimeo employees and all the people part of the recent tech bloodbath experienced that too, but without even pocketing the upside beforehand. I'd argue that for anyone currently searching for a job, they will get a better ROI engaging in sales instead.

Any monkey can (and does) sling ChatGPT'd resumes at anything that moves, hoping to get the job and pocket enough salary before people catch on. That scam doesn't work with consultancy on a "paid on delivery" model, so the market there is much less crowded. There are different scams out there but those primarily target big companies.

> There's not a lot of vectors I feel I can jump in to say "I'll do this for 1000/hr"

We as techies know how the sausage is made and estimate a "fair" price based on the effort it would take us to do it. A car mechanic would probably also consider retail oil change prices to be unfair... because he's already invested in the knowledge and tooling and with those it's indeed a 5 min job.

From a business' perspective though, our work might as well be magic - we are writing prayers in an arcane language to make silicon come to life and do things that generate money for the business. It's magic that they have repeatedly failed to replicate for themselves. The latest fad is AI/LLMs and that will fail too - LLMs only work in the hands of a skilled operator - and otherwise fail disastrously and often generate extra remediation work on short notice.

If you worked in tech there's a good chance your past contributions are netting way more than 1k/hour to someone else already - so you can generate this value. The challenge now is to capture more of said value.

Nobody in their right mind will pay 10x market rate for no guarantee of result; see my other comments in this thread. This would open them up to the same scams that happen with permanent employees and third-world countries will be all over it the next day.

But if they are guaranteed a result then the calculus changes, they are no longer thinking of hourly rates but instead of as a fraction of the revenue enabled by your solution, and their risk is lowered to only the opportunity cost. This is a much better deal for the client. Your resulting hourly rate now purely depends on the value of the solution to the client divided by how quickly you can do the task.

You only explicitly quote the 10x market rate when you want the client to bounce because the job or client sounds like a nightmare. You will get some clients who are cheap and insist on an hourly rate to explicitly prevent you from playing the above game and earning the (much bigger) cut of the solution. The "fuck you" rate is for that, it's not expected to be taken, it's there to set a baseline price for your expertise and make the deals you offer sound more attractive in comparison.

It's basically all sales and reframing your work from salaried/hourly rate to how much your work is worth for potential clients (which doesn't scale linearly with time invested nor software complexity).

As to why am I giving you advice on how to compete with me? Because you're already competing with me by willing to settle for permanent employment market rate for the services I am offering. Encouraging you to charge more helps us both.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics are different because the industries are fundamentally different. Software is never "finished" the way a building is finished. More features can always be added to software. If those new features create new product lines and attract new revenue, then the software engineers' salaries are more than paying for themselves. But, this obviously carries risk, that the new thing you develop won't be worth as mu…

> Software is never "finished" Software may never be finished (in your opinion) but the budget of any customer is finite. If you keep reinvesting your revenue forever into "engineering" the product there's going to be a time where a competitor comes in with a finished product matching your customers' requirements and snatches him from you by both charging less and making a profit.

> Software may never be finished (in your opinion) but the budget of any customer is finite.

Not if you find new ways to appeal to them once you have them as users.

The search engine markets is finite, so Alphabet expanded elsewhere

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hosting video at scale, I'm going on a limb here and saying that the scale that YouTube was running on back in 2010-2015 is not the same scale as now, and if they had left their whole infrastructure unchanged, a "finished product", so to speak, the site would have been feeling dated and would have eventually been killed off.

Without having access to the source code we can only speculate but I believe even in those days YouTube already outgrew vertical scaling and thus had to be built as a horizontally-scalable system. That is the hard part. Adding extra nodes to an existing horizontally-scalable system (that has already been operating and has its bugs ironed out) is much easier.

Its a different skill set. And if its not one that you have or are interested in then it makes for a great time to exit.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#477
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People use Vimeo?

They have a product where you can make your own whitelabeled video site, which is used by some popular services, ex. Dropout.

My local karate school used them in the COVID era to build an app for practicing at home. I've used it off and on, though the occasional oblique reference to COVID is a bit amusing sometimes. Never mentioned by name but there's an occasional reference to "as we're stuck at home" and such. They use Vimeo to whitelabel the service.

Whatever they're paying for it, it is too much. Video availability drops in and out. Sometimes the video works. Sometimes it doesn't work at all and gives a weird error. Sometimes it doesn't work and it claims that it "can't guarantee the security of my connection", even though other videos work fine. Sometimes videos that didn't work yesterday work today. I've been tempted to go to their app developer and try to show them how to just host it themselves in S3 or something, which would probably still be much cheaper than what Vimeo is charging. The Vimeo player embedded into the app is extremely minimalistic, for instance, it can't cast to anything, which is a pretty useful feature for something you don't want to be staring at your phone for.

I found I can Favorite a video, which then makes me log in to a Vimeo account, then it adds it as a Favorite to my Vimeo account despite being private, and then I can view it through the Vimeo app proper, although that also seems to have lost the ability to cast to anything in my house lately. Casting is a clusterfuck of its own with the mismatched capabilities matrix of what can cast to what under what circumstances anyhow, but Vimeo seems distinctly behind on that front. It's honestly significantly worse now than the default video player a browser offers at this point.

But it was probably relatively easy for them to set it up ~5 years ago, before Vimeo collapsed.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question doesn't really make sense. What business isn't driven by the goal of making money ultimately?

What businesses are profit-driven? I would love to know so I can avoid them.

Every gas station, grocery store, convenience store, pharmacy, urgent care, every bank, every tech company, every computer manufacturer, most food production companies, most farms, every resource extraction company, every manufacturing company.

Re: Tell HN: Bending Spoons laid off almost everybody at Vimeo yesterday

#479
post #317
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bending Spoons understandably don’t want a final percentage out there, because the more people know about this, the less likely they are to use Vimeo. Most everyone I knew there was just laid off, with a skeleton crew that’s been asked to stay on until April.

People use Vimeo?

They have 1000s if not 100s and 1000s of customers. I know because my company is an edtech platform and we have a lot of customers using vimeo as their video host.
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