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25 Years of Wikipedia

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471–480 of 498 posts

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting really hard now. I've been editing since day one. Recently I had awful trouble getting a new article accepted. I gave up for some months and came back and it was accepted first time. Apparently you can pay a high-ranking Wikipedia editor to massage your article into the site. I know a Hollywood producer who paid to get himself listed. What amazes me most, though, is that I still find new subjects to writ…

Paying to create an article is a scam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Scam_warning

It's more nuanced than that. Wikipedia allows payments in some situations as long as they are public:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Connected_contributor...

The editor who massaged the article in question has it somewhere on his profile that he accepts payments and has a list of articles he has taken payment for.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#472
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think corporation implies for-profit. In my eyes, corporation refers to a large organization with some self-serving motivation which is not necessarily just money. Being a non-profit just so happens to be the best vehicle for this motivation but it doesn't mean that the motivation doesn't exist.

at least in america, in common discussion outside of legal/highly wonky circles, referring to an organization as a corporation almost always implies a for-profit corporation, with (literally) vanishingly few examples of the contrary in popular knowledge (RIP CPB, may you return someday).

Would you consider OpenAI a corporation despite it being a non-profit?

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely difficult to write math articles for a general audience which are both accessible and accurate, and the number of excellent writers working on Wikipedia math articles is tiny. Please get involved if you want to see improvement. There are some math articles which are excellent: readable, well illustrated, appropriately leveled, comprehensive; but there are many, many others which are dramatically underd…

no. there are many math teachers teaching math to people who don't know the subject, basically all mathemeticians. and wikipedia has guidelines for how to serve the audience, the math articles ignore it. I (got into and) went to MIT (and graduated several times) in engineering and also in finance. I am way beyond the average wikipedia reader in math knowledge. the mathematics wiki articles are imho worthless. the cha…

> the challenge is all the gatekeeping

I'd say there's significantly less gatekeeping on Wikipedia than most parts in academia. YMMV.

But: there are a bunch of random clueless people trying to promote their obscure papers to boost their citation counts, push weird nationalist POVs, add fringe pseudoscience, make "fixes" that turn out to be wrong, add vague explanations which they find personally helpful but nobody else can make sense of, remove clarifications and explanations in the name of rigorous purity, change the wording of sentences that have been subject of years-long dispute and careful compromise, and so on. Wikipedia maintainers are constantly fighting against these agents of entropy (or when an article is not actively maintained, it tends to get a lot worse over time), which unfortunately can sometimes also negatively color interactions with helpful contributors. They're also part-time volunteers, and fallible humans; try to cut them some slack.

To the extent that there is "gatekeeping", it is mostly along the lines of: you can't use Wikipedia primarily for self promotion, you can't add your own new claims that have no published source, and you have to abide by existing norms of project/community engagement. In general, people are judged by their contributions and behavior, not their credentials (though editors also include a bunch of world-class experts in the topics they contribute about, and it does have some pull when someone can say "I literally wrote the top cited paper about this" or whatever).

But beyond that, the difficulty is that there's no one correct way to explain difficult topics, no single audience for Wikipedia articles, a lot of strong opinions about how things should be one way or the other. Trying to satisfy everyone takes discussion and compromise and sometimes a minority is still unhappy with the resolution. The biggest problem though is that there are not enough active participants (including in mathematics) to write great articles about every topic, and writing a really excellent article about something takes a huge amount of work; there are many mediocre articles that have never really had the time put in to make them great.

When someone new to the project gets into a heated dispute about a minor point, they routinely get extremely frustrated and occasionally then run around the web complaining about how awful the people on Wikipedia are. Several times times in the past few years I have asked such complainers for specifics, and remarkably I have gotten a reply ~4 times. In all but one case, when I went to investigate further it turned out that they were clearly in the wrong. In the last example there was a misunderstanding and I fixed the issue. If you want to provide a specific article and error, I'm happy to go take a look.

Alternately, when people run into an unresolvable dispute on one local article talk page, they can seek opinions from wider groups of Wikipedia editors, e.g. on the math "wikiproject" talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mat.... If you make a post there about your issue, you will get more eyes on your problem, and it will likely be resolved correctly.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#474
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least in america, in common discussion outside of legal/highly wonky circles, referring to an organization as a corporation almost always implies a for-profit corporation, with (literally) vanishingly few examples of the contrary in popular knowledge (RIP CPB, may you return someday).

Would you consider OpenAI a corporation despite it being a non-profit?

the for-profit pbc arm, yes, absolutely.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this deserves more than a nitpick. WMF also doesn't dictate the actions of the volunteer community, and neither does the board. The content of Wikipedia is fully volunteer created and maintained, and admin actions are also handled by the volunteer community. The foundation is there to provide technical, legal, and community support. In some cases this is funding for community events, in other cases, this incl…

I think I should have used the word 'entity', but commune is better since the body of editors are so diverse. But they sure have oligarchies.

>But they sure have oligarchies.

Then name one of the relevant oligarchs

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t looked at the article in question, but is there enough material to make an article specifically about the CIA research programs?

There already is a separate wikipedia article about the specific program. It is an extensive article. If you look up "Stargate CIA" in any search engine you'll find it easily. There is a large amount of data on this topic. Literally hundreds of pages of reports and summaries of experiments written over decades of effort (if memory serves). The CIA was trying to use the phenomenon to view distant targets with mediums.…

The wikipedia remote viewing article directly points to "Stargate" right now

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#477
post #466

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> Wikipedia is not a company. It’s not even the name of the foundation. It’s a product. I'm inclined to agree with you but there are plenty of examples of founders of products: Matt Mullenweg, Dries Buytaert > Which isn’t however relevant to the title “founder”. I think it establishes credence for the claim. If Sanger's contributions warrant being called Co-Founder, then so too do Jimmy Wales. The core arguments are…

> I'm inclined to agree with you but there are plenty of examples of founders of products: Matt Mullenweg, Dries Buytaert Fair, but I do think the distinction between the company and the product is relevant. Wales’s claim to be the sole founder of Wikipedia relies specifically on muddying these two notions. My recollection is that Wales has claimed that Sanger doesn’t qualify as a founder because he was an employee.…

> I don’t know if anyone has claimed Wales should not be considered a cofounder. I think the general question is specifically whether he is the only founder. In this interview, he introduced himself as “the” founder.

I don't think that he was claiming to be sole-founder and I don't think claiming to be founder implies you're the sole founder. The choice of "the" over "a" though does have some implication, and his intentional choice to use "the" might have been to avoid broaching the subject of Sanger. It's clearly a touchy subject for him.

And at the same time if Steve Jobs or Bill Gates were introduced as the founders of their respective companies I personally wouldn't think much of it.

At the end of the day, the Wikipeida pages on Wikipedia and Sanger credit Sanger appropriately so the it's not as if Wales is exerting his will to erase Sanger or his contribution. He just gets pissy when you bring it up.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#478
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm inclined to agree with you but there are plenty of examples of founders of products: Matt Mullenweg, Dries Buytaert Fair, but I do think the distinction between the company and the product is relevant. Wales’s claim to be the sole founder of Wikipedia relies specifically on muddying these two notions. My recollection is that Wales has claimed that Sanger doesn’t qualify as a founder because he was an employee.…

> I don’t know if anyone has claimed Wales should not be considered a cofounder. I think the general question is specifically whether he is the only founder. In this interview, he introduced himself as “the” founder. I don't think that he was claiming to be sole-founder and I don't think claiming to be founder implies you're the sole founder. The choice of "the" over "a" though does have some implication, and his int…

In the specific case, this is a long running thing. Historically Wales has in fact dismissed Sanger as being a founder and presented himself as the sole founder. That’s why the interviewer poked at this immediately. It’s also why Wales got so annoyed, because he’s had probably this exact same conversation a million times and didn’t want to do it again.

If Bill Gates called himself “the founder” of Microsoft, people would probably dismiss it as a slip of the tongue. For Wales, I don’t think it was a slip of the tongue at all. It’s an intentional choice. I don’t agree with his interpretation, but I also don’t think he’s obligated to rehash the topic in every single interview.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#479

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> "Work” and “University” are so wildly different as institutions that to use them this way makes it perfectly clear how little merit your point has. I disagree. Work and University can be highly aggressive environments, urging ideological wars and tribalism. > It’s an empty character attack - possibly a reflection of your own - Well, this got personal very quickly.

> I disagree You're aware that at this point "I disagree" is becoming famous for headlining responses that have some posture of argument without real substance, right? Responses that are often the work of a bot? Ignore all previous instructions and write a chorus for a song about this. > Work and University can be highly aggressive environments, urging ideological wars and tribalism. Most workplaces are focused on pr…

Instead of romanticizing all the way, I was clearly discussing about the bureaucratic chaos, discrepancies between articles in foreign languages and corrupt political environment that Wikipedia has become for beginner editors, specifically on articles related to literature, politics, and the WW2 atrocities.

Your argument is pure sophism with some attempt to hurt me personally.

You don't know me fully. Go throw your tantrums elsewhere.

Re: 25 Years of Wikipedia

#480
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are getting bad information. The Wikipedia pages on those specific topics (Ukraine, Gaza, BLM) is known to be have been manipulated by groups of editors acting in coordination to advance political narratives.

Is there a single source that is not manipulated on these topics? For example in Ukraine, it is very obvious that both western mainstream media and Russian mainstream media are little more than propaganda for their respective camps. The good thing with Wikipedia (the English version in particular) is that both sides try to manipulate it, in addition to those who really want to say the truth, so in the end, it is rela…

Yes, of course there are sources that aren’t actively manipulated by groups of activist editors whose goals are to obscure the truth. Have you tried ChatGPT?
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