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FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

theguardian.com

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Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#471

Post by mos_basik »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #131
joering2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take it for whats its worth but I been good friends with someone who works in Newsom camp, and constantly goes for a bite with his team. They talk alot. The main theme now is how to use illegal immigration situation to their benefit. If Newsom is elected President, he wants to go door to door in search for illegal guns that illegals are harboring. Of course all this is BS, or in such insignificant amount that its rat…

In your “it would be fun to see people I don’t like being killed” you have conflated legal gun ownership that you don’t like to illegally crossing the remaining the borders of a country… and you can’t see it huh?

You're misquoting them. They said "it would be fun to see [people I don't like] have their guns cataloged."

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#472

Post by cdrnsf »

peab wrote: post #194
njovin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's fair to say we're chilling - there have been fairly organized (although admittedly not very large) protests around the nation related to the killing of Nicole Renee Good. I live in southern California and there were at least 6 within easy driving distance this past weekend. Whenever ICE goes into a new city, they're meeting more and more community resistance. The protestors have mostly been very…

I understand protesting ICE for better accountability, they certainly need to be held accountable. But I don't understand those who protest the presence of ICE as a concept. Are there any countries that don't enforce their immigration laws?

You can enforce immigration laws without shooting people in the face, ramming into their vehicles, ripping them out and putting them in illegal chokeholds, shipping them to prisons in El Salvador, firing tear gas at legal observers and on and on.

It also wasn't an agency prior to 9/11. It should be dissolved. All ERO agents should be prosecuted and or barred from all future public service.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#473

Post by cdrnsf »

peab wrote: post #460
toast0 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A protest movement can't be very subtle. A clear and short message like "No ICE" or "ICE Out" is much preferable to "We would like an immigrations and and custom enforcement agency that respects people and the law, efficiently inspects imports, checks in on visa overstayers, pursues charges against business owners that have a business practice of not checking work eligibility of new hires, and works with competent, t…

but it's directionally wrong. It's like the BLM protests that had main messages of abolishing the police - those had terrible consequences [1]. "Reform" would be a better direction. [1] In 2020, during the height of the protests and the pandemic, low-income communities of color experienced the sharpest increases in firearm violence and homicides https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/firearm-deaths/index.html [2] Polls have…

ICE didn't exist prior to 9/11. There's no reason it can't be dissolved.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#474

Post by vel0city »

peab wrote: post #461
vel0city wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any countries that don't enforce their immigration laws? I don't think there are many developed countries where their immigration officers are routinely tear gassing students and bystanders, no. I don't think there are many developed countries where their immigration officers are detaining indigenous peoples in private, for-profit detention centers without charging them with any kind of crime. Feel free t…

Hm, you seem to be replying to an argument that I did not make. this seems to fall under: > I understand protesting ICE for better accountability, they certainly need to be held accountable

The argument about getting rid of ICE isn't about having zero enforcement of immigration laws. It is about getting rid of this entire stack of management and agents. I guess that's what you're not understanding.

ICE is recent. We don't need ICE, the organization and people that are currently doing what they're doing, to continue to be a part of the government. If the whole organization is behaving badly, the whole organization should be scrapped and a new organization with different people and a different plan and enforcement style should be created.

ICE was created in 2003. We had immigration enforcement actions happen well before 2003. Getting rid of ICE does not mean "no longer enforce immigration laws".

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#475

Post by mesk »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #464
mesk wrote: post #225

Or as some 'uknown' VP would say: We will protect freedom of speech until the last journalist is behind the bars. That is the price we are willing to pay.

Are you referencing something? I can’t find any utterances of this phrase or something similar to it. Sounds juicy though.

No and yes. The first sentence paraphrases certain someone blabbering about the lack of freedom of speech in the EU. The second is from Shrek :-)

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#476

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

rmah wrote: post #435
peab wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand protesting ICE for better accountability, they certainly need to be held accountable. But I don't understand those who protest the presence of ICE as a concept. Are there any countries that don't enforce their immigration laws?

It saddens me that your rather innocuous comment has been down-voted so aggressively. Immigration enforcement is required. Illegal immigration should be discouraged. ICE's current tactics seem overly aggressive to me and, yes, seem to be used politically. But immigration laws should still be enforced. I imagine you'd agree that if ICE agents/supervisors act beyond the scope of their duties or with excessive force, th…

> rather innocuous comment

It may appear innocuous yet it normalizes ICE's actions as mere "immigration enforcement". Their actions are far more and far worse than that, as you note:

> ICE's current tactics seem overly aggressive to me and, yes, seem to be used politically.

It is not an issue of immigration laws being enforced, it is an issue of rights being infringed. The "overly aggressive" tactics being "used politically" is exactly the problem.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#477

Post by DiscourseFan »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #467
shermantanktop wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Final resolution for that leader, in any case. But in the cycles of history, those events are almost always inflection points where something new happens. For the Terror, that lasted a while, but then we got Napoleon, which was definitely a new chapter.

> in the cycles of history, those events are almost always inflection points where something new happens Guillotines have historically been a time for the elites to consolidate wealth and power (with some shuffling among them). The poor and middle class eat shit. (The only exceptions to the first part to my knowledge being the o.g., and only the o.g., communist revolutions in Russia and China. Still shit for the poor…

Human society is prone to convulsions, though. Just like the often body requires a shock to become stronger, healthier, societies need to be a push to avoid stagnation and decay. Though its true that you risk permanent injury, if you go too far.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#478

Post by saulpw »

Nicook wrote: post #433
cathyreisenwitz wrote: post #37

“When populists get into power, the rhetorical discourse frames tend to be used to implement successive autocratic measures, such as limiting opposition through electoral manipulation, thwarting the free press, changing the constitution in their own favor, and circumscribing minority, civil, political, and economic rights. Populists are usually not against electoral democracy per se, but rather at odds with liberal d…

"Liberal Democracy" is such a charged word.

It doesn't mean "liberal" in the political sense. It has a well-defined meaning (from wikipedia):

> Liberal democracy emphasizes the separation of powers, an independent judiciary, and a system of checks and balances between branches of government. Multi-party systems with at least two persistent, viable political parties are characteristic of liberal democracies.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#479

Post by JumpCrisscross »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #477
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the cycles of history, those events are almost always inflection points where something new happens Guillotines have historically been a time for the elites to consolidate wealth and power (with some shuffling among them). The poor and middle class eat shit. (The only exceptions to the first part to my knowledge being the o.g., and only the o.g., communist revolutions in Russia and China. Still shit for the poor…

Human society is prone to convulsions, though. Just like the often body requires a shock to become stronger, healthier, societies need to be a push to avoid stagnation and decay. Though its true that you risk permanent injury, if you go too far.

> its true that you risk permanent injury, if you go too far

Guillotining–and violence as a tool of politics more broadly–is pretty much a one-way signal in the historical record (outside civil wars). More concentration of wealth and power. Or anarchy. Either way, the poor and middle class end up worse.

As for my civil-war caveat, even that's starting to look one way in the age of information and globally-mobilised proxy-war assets.

Re: FBI raids Washington Post reporter's home

#480

Post by NickC25 »

beeflet wrote: post #266
NickC25 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just a few years ago, their own supporters were smugly saying that standing up to the government is a fantasy for paranoid whackjobs. One dude in his home with a gun or two versus a 50 billion dollar ICE force that has complete immunity and a massive media and political empire ready to spin any bad incident into an us-versus-them narrative..... Yeah, it is a fantasy. Oh, and if anything really gets out of hand, that…

>One dude in his home with a gun or two versus a 50 billion dollar ICE force that has complete immunity and a massive media and political empire ready to spin any bad incident into an us-versus-them narrative..... How does legal immunity or a media empire affect a dead man? >Oh, and if anything really gets out of hand, that political empire also has nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are not very useful in a civil conf…

>How does legal immunity or a media empire affect a dead man?

If I have complete legal immunity from ANY of my actions, including killing someone, and there's a massive multi-trillion dollar media empire dedicated to creating regime-friendly narratives and supporting the leaders on "my side" at all costs, I can harass, defame, defraud, and kill you without hesitation whenever, wherever, and however I see fit, and I'll get no blowback. I'll get fans and supporters.

Haven't we learned anything from history?

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