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There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

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Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exceptions don't define the rule, the rule does. Israeli estimates put the military wing of Hamas at having up to 17,000 members before the war. They've killed people in the hundreds of thousands in Gaza now. In WW2 partisans would intentionally induce brutal retaliations precisely because they thought it would expose the character of the occupier, garner support for themselves, radicalize the population, and general…

> Israeli estimates put the military wing of Hamas at having up to 17,000 Where did you see that estimate? Some estimates were ~40k, with many more recruits added during the war. And not everyone attacking the IDF was Hamas-affiliated. PIJ alone had thousands of fighters, and as we saw on Oct 7, sometimes random Gazans join in on fighting too. > They've killed people in the hundreds of thousands in Gaza now. Hamas th…

The exact sources and numbers one wants to use don't really matter. You're right that there's a high uncertainty, but only in details. The overall picture is quite clear and consistent. In Gaza, Israel is primarily killing civilians under the pretext of seeking out a relatively small number of Hamas militants. And they have killed a significant percent of the entire population of Gaza, which only had a total population of ~2 million.

For instance the Lancet carried out a study using a variety of sources for cross-referencing, including things like obituaries, and found ~70k deaths in the first 8 months of the war, a war that's now been going on for years. And those deaths they measured were also only those caused directly and immediately by Israel due to traumatic injury. Famine, disease, despair, an other such deaths are not counted and bring it up substantially higher.

Politics in the US waxes and wanes, increasingly between extremes. Israel has already alienated itself from one 'side' in America, and is gradually doing the same with the other. Consequently, the fate of Israel in the future is more uncertain than ever - imagine an Israel not only lacking US support, but with an antagonistic US government in charge. And they also aren't exactly making friends with Russia or China. Making enemies of the world as a micronation is generally not a wise path to go down.

As for Ukraine, there's similarly a clear picture. There's no doubt that civilians are being killed but there's also no doubt that the vastly overwhelming majority of all deaths are military. So the situations simply aren't comparable.

Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#472
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, better read more closely then before replying :) Nope. I prefer to read not so close and just reply anyway. > Understood. Unfortunately, you got confused about who you were replying to; it wasn't me who argued the calculation mattered. I actually argued the calculation was a retroactive justification, not the actual one. I can see you got lost here. Maybe for the benefit of, you know, your "broader audience"…

> Nope. I prefer to read not so close and just reply anyway. It shows. Maybe you should read closer so as to debate the actual statements and not something you imagined. I had typed a longer answer but then realized it's pointless. You seem intent on setting some kind of trap or gotcha, which is pointless. It's also against the HN guidelines, but you already know this. You've already decided I fit a "common pattern"…

I'm not doing anything against the guidelines, but please feel free to report the post or send an email to the appropriate moderator.

Just because I disagree with you and characterize your arguments as following a similar pattern as other anti-American and anti-Western rhetoric doesn't mean anything I said is a "trap" or a "gotcha" or against guidelines. Though accusing others of trolling or bad faith tends to be against the rules.

You don't know the first thing about me, or what I think of any given country, so by accusing me ahead of time of "bad faith trolling" of your country" you're engaging in the same behavior you are accusing me of. You've already decided I fit a common pattern and will troll your country!

The fact of the matter here is that I disagreed with your points and said why, and all you did was accuse me of saying I ignored your arguments. But I did not, I addressed them head-on and shared my point of view.

During that time you couldn't say what country you were from so perhaps we can discuss your country too, and you can't bring yourself to criticize the Soviet Union or its mass murders and genocide and collaboration with the Nazis because you're just engaging in anti-American and anti-Western rhetoric. You say I've already decided that you fit a common pattern. No, I didn't decide that, you just provided the evidence.

Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#473
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nope. I prefer to read not so close and just reply anyway. It shows. Maybe you should read closer so as to debate the actual statements and not something you imagined. I had typed a longer answer but then realized it's pointless. You seem intent on setting some kind of trap or gotcha, which is pointless. It's also against the HN guidelines, but you already know this. You've already decided I fit a "common pattern"…

I'm not doing anything against the guidelines, but please feel free to report the post or send an email to the appropriate moderator. Just because I disagree with you and characterize your arguments as following a similar pattern as other anti-American and anti-Western rhetoric doesn't mean anything I said is a "trap" or a "gotcha" or against guidelines. Though accusing others of trolling or bad faith tends to be aga…

I don't think this is a debate anymore.

Goodbye.

Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the war wasn't over the justification doesn't matter. I think that's the point you are broadly missing. Were we at war with Japan? Yes. Therefore any action we take to end that war was justified, including continuing to bomb Japanese cities, industrial areas, and civilian centers until the war is concluded and they surrendered. Testing weapons even would be acceptable. Japan was still fighting us. Nations test wea…

During wartime justifications for carpet bombing do matter .. see Geneva Conventions et al. Not that these things are enforced, of course, see bombings throughout SE Asia during Vietnam and the international punishment dealt out to Kissinger. > I think that's the point you are broadly missing. Did I? Let me be clearer. There was no particular examination of the justifications for killing civilains specifically in the…

> Yeah, maybe take some moral and ethics classes, look into why there's pushback over actions in Gaza, etc.

Gaza (what a bizarre thing to bring up anyway) has nothing to do with actions taken by any nation during World War II. It's not even a war between nations. Unless you count Iran since they're the ones causing so much pain for everyone by inciting terrorist organizations in the region and ensure there can be no peace.

> During wartime justifications for carpet bombing do matter .. see Geneva Conventions et al.

Not all wars are created equal, and not all actions taking during one war can be justified during another. For example, the United States using an atomic bomb on Iraq (regardless if the invasion was justified or not, but for the sake of argument here we can assume it's justified) would be morally wrong in any context.

Why is that the case?

Because the United States unofficially (if memory serves) declared war on Iraq, invaded Iraq, and did so with overwhelming military, economic, and political superiority. Iraq posed no existential threat to the United States. Just because it's a war doesn't mean you get to use everything in your arsenal.

When you compare that with the war against Japan, you find a very different picture.

World War II as a whole, including the war against Japan was an existential war requiring the full participation of all of society, civilian or otherwise. This was the same case on the eastern front of the war. The Nazis were exterminating people. The Soviets (and anyone else for that matter) were justified in bombing Nazi population centers, including carpet bombing, or even dropping their own atomic bomb on Berlin if that brought an end to the war.

Concepts and ideas around things like the Geneva conventions fail in these existential total war scenarios for two reasons:

  1. They are arbitrary, and applied and justified post-hoc. Specifically the Geneva conventions weren't agreed upon prior to 1949 IIRC and so applying their moral and legal justification to actions prior to that as though one group broke a treaty or acted immorally doesn't make a lot of sense except of course as a way to criticize western powers. If you want to argue about how some countries violated what were later the Geneva conventions by their military activities, the only thing you're really telling me here is that all countries were very bad because the Japanese sure as hell violated the Geneva Conventions, and you know very well the Soviets did too, as did the Nazis. So if you want to criticize the US for dropping the atomic bomb, I criticize the other countries involved in the war equally, and I'd also criticize countries who stayed neutral during the war and did not fight to liberate Europe and Asia. 

  2. They don't map correctly to wars where one or more of the participants is intent on committing genocide or otherwise exterminating the actual population of the other. And in total war scenarios the civilian population is building and funding the war efforts and thus become legitimate targets. Otherwise it would be illegal and immoral to bomb a tank factory because you kill civilians. It's not. You know that, and I know that. 
> Not that these things are enforced, of course, see bombings throughout SE Asia during Vietnam and the international punishment dealt out to Kissinger.

See bombings by the Soviets and mass starvation of civilians by them and the Chinese. See any number of things done by other countries not named the United States. Let's talk about those as examples going forward instead. We're well aware of all the criticisms of the United States but I don't care about those, I'm interested only in criticisms of the actions of non-western countries and how they have acted in morally bankrupt ways with the usage of their weapons.

Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#475
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no actual international law. There is, of course, both private and public international law. You don't know what you're talking about.

There is something by that name, but it doesn't mean much. On the international level, it's all voluntary. States can choose to be part of the international courts. The US (and many other high profile countries) famously are not participating, which is why they can effectively just commit war crimes left and right. In contrast, if you go rob a grocery store, you can't just opt out of punishment. "I'm not a member of…

Some international law is "voluntary", some is not. You cannot for example commit a genocide by opting out of the law.

And yes, of course, it can sometimes be hard to enforce international law, just like it can be very hard to enforce national laws. It is illegal to murder people in most countries, yet people murder each other and some people get away with it.

Re: There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s complicated. While it’s true that there is no direct enforcement, systems of sanctions and embargos have been used to indirectly enforce these agreements. Whether this is ultimately effective is not obvious, but I think “international law does not exist” is a simplistic take, with all due respect for your opinion (which I understand and partially share)

I doubt we are about to see those mechanisms being used to penalise the US for this latest behaviour though. I don’t think other UN or NATO states are strong enough to play this game with the US yet.

And Germany wasn't punished for their behavior until much later.
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