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French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

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Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#471
post #423
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not some kind of clickbait strategy to drive views. Driving an agenda is. Most of French media, specially newspapers, are money sinks only surviving because they are useful to push the rent-seeking business or ideological agenda of their owners (Dassault, Bouygues, Lagardere, Arnault, Bettencourt, Saade, Pinault, Niel). Also, just for context, Martin Bouygues, Bernard Arnault and Vincent Bollore, the respect…

What about Le Monde Diplomatique?

Groupe Le Monde (Xavier Niel, founder of Free and 42 schools, wed to Bernard Arnault's daughter (French Bourgeoisie is a small world)).

But Le Monde Diplomatique's redaction has been able to remain independent thanks to it's 49% shares and veto right.

It's also fairly small (~10 permanent journalists + independent contributors, ~150k monthly readers).

It's not really the kind of journal able to sustain a long investigation, it's more "social commentaries with a left-leaning/alter-mundialist point of view".

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#473
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's crazy to me is seeing this happen at an individual level. In 2022, my conservative family members were reluctantly but firmly on board with the idea that Trump did the crimes: lied to the tax man, stole the classified documents, leaned on the Georgia secretary of state to "find me 11780 votes," and on Jan 6 set up fake electors and asked Pence to overturn the election. In each case, they gave a good fight, but…

Isn't it curious how your comment collects downvotes, despite just stating facts.

The biggest trick HN ever pulled was convincing people that this place was somehow uniquely resistant to systemic vote gamification.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#474
post #406

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

The fact that he is even going to jail, or that there was a trial at all, is amazing. In Canada, top-level corruption like this just gets covered up by RCMP (who are directly top-down controlled by PM) - many cases of this.

One that I've noticed recently is that we had a housing "crisis" up until prices actually sort of started dropping, and now all the coverage is about the plight of condo developers. Thankfully we have the former mayor of the most expensive city in Canada as the housing minister, chosen over the MP for Beaches who actually seemed to give a damn.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#475

A former Prime Minister of a first world country in jail is insane. He must have made a crime without the help of others because in political scandals usually a whole gang of public people is liable. Then you have to convict the monkey with the bananas and the whole tree. If we follow the French justice, in my country (Greece) about 10% of people including almost all the politicians of the last decades should be in j…

Chirac also got a jail sentence, though it was suspended on account of his age. In Ireland, we prefer to just tie them up in tribunals for the rest of their lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Haughey (PM til '92, under investigation from '97 to '06, at which point he died)

That's what Sarkozy was going for, he had been slowing the procedure by any means necessary for 13 years.

That's why he's so pissed he was send to prison during his appeal. He expected to slow that down too, and get to stay at home on account of his age should he lose his appeal.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#476
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The first trump campaign was fueled by government and banks not being held accountable Nah that's horse shit. Trump has been trying to ride outright populism since Ross Perot showed you could be a moron with no experience and people would still insist you were somehow a genius because you had a million dollars. Trump's first campaign was nothing more than the republican party being utterly ravenous to demonstrate th…

Yes I do not think you should let the Democrats off Defending a status quo that is so obviously broken, where injustice is getting baked in to cultural expectations... I am sad that it has come to this, and I fear for the health, very existence, of the republic

It's the voters fault.

They want to hurt people. They elect Republicans to hurt people and openly cry that the republicans do not hurt the "right" people, and then vote for them again. They cheer on siccing the damn National Guard on random blue cities, which they have never even seen and have no knowledge of because they hate liberals. They cheer for sending brown skinned people to torture prisons and putting razor wire in the rivers they use to cross because the cruelty is intentional. They've wanted to turn the southern border into the berlin wall at least since Bush Jr, and emphatically want the guards to be just as hostile as the soviet ones.

The day after the Penn State massacre by the National Guard, more than half of the polled people blamed the students for getting shot. They were upset that students were protesting the Vietnam war.

They just want "uppity" people put down, because non-conformance is somehow the biggest problem I guess? The want this imagined social and societal conformance that only existed in their head. Though a large fraction of them explicitly want a theocracy and to take away your rights to not be christian or to be taught things that are against a fundamentalist christian perspective, which is funny, because the "christian" religions pushing for this are insanely unchristian.

The entire reason the US has laws on the book for "Religious exemptions for required vaccines" that are currently being weaponized to for some reason bring back nearly eradicated diseases is entirely because of the Church of Jesus Christ; Scientist, which claims to be christian even though it's a cult that spawned from like 20 literal Simps competing for the attention of an insane lady who plagiarized her fake religion from a crackpot "doctor" right here in Portland Maine, and outright lied about a miraculous disease recovery that never happened. This same group also successfully prevented states from punishing parents who let their children die from completely preventable illness for "religious reasons".

This is not "Freedom of religion". Those dead kids are not free from religion. In fact, the US and state governments went out of its way to carve out rules to allow parents to impart THEIR religion on their kids.

A lower bound of 10% of Americans openly state that they believe Continental Drift has not happened and that god created humans and the earth as it is now within the past 10k years. 30 million americans openly state that they believe easily verifiable science is not just wrong, but outright a conspiracy against them done by science in league with satan. That is not an exaggeration. There's an entire parallel set of media industries around teaching your kids that science is fake and that scientists think you are stupid, have no evidence, and are literally helping satan trick you into hating god. They consistently make movies, shows, books, etc where they are the poor little victims of an authoritarian state who literally busts down their doors for believing in god. They insist that Starbucks not saying "merry christmas" is an attack on their religious freedom. They WRONGLY assert that the US was founded as a "christian" nation, including multiple currently sitting members of state and federal legislatures. This can only be a lie, as the founders were not shy about being not conventionally christian.

Since the Civil Rights Act, Americans have reliably elected more and more Republicans. It took BS marketing slogans ("It's the economy stupid") to elect Clinton and the worst economic event in many decades to get them to vote for Obama, and a pandemic to vote in Biden. Otherwise they reliably elect Republicans and let them cause problems.

I cannot fathom how people still "blame democrats". They cannot do anything when people do not vote for them, that's how democracy works and this goes triple for the US democracy that does not give minority parties any power. There is nothing a democrat president can do with a hostile congress and court, and that's as designed

You can say "Well the democrats need to be more electable" or something, but you cannot court the racists and religious fundamentalists without objectively abandoning important things like "Freedom" and "Justice" and "children should be educated in a way that may not be compatible with religious fundamentalism and unquestioning parental authority if the parent is wrong about something".

When democrats in the 90s backed liberalism, it's because that's what americans voted for as seen by Reagan's landslide. When they backed the stupid Crime bill, they did it because that's what americans were screaming for. Now, even though those were objectively what Americans wanted, Democrats are held at fault for both. Even though when they tried to not embrace liberalism, they lost nearly all power, and it nearly destroyed the democrat party.

When Democrats suggest incentives to build new power infrastructure, that's socialism and anti-american and they are killing the economy and destroying our country. When Donald Trump cuts us off from global markets and talks about invading our allies and massively increases the cost of building things in the US and literally takes a national stock in a private company, that's somehow fine and nobody ever says the S word.

There is an insane double standard, where Democrats are absolutely panned for not having Authoritarian power to fix everything and be perfect even after they do not get voted in, but republicans get to seriously undermine our country and people and still somehow get elected. It's infuriating. It is deeply dishonest.

There are plenty of polls that demonstrate that there is a huge effect from having "(D)" next to your name. Voters will say "I agree with this" in a poll, and then also say "I refuse to support a (D) doing this" in a similar poll. They then vote for a republican who objectively will not do that thing, because their public platform loudly declares they support the opposite. Most republicans want a legalization of weed, but keep voting for republicans who openly declare their intent to continue to criminalize weed. There are several states that have public referendums that pass popular measures which are then outright contravened or illegally suppressed by Republican governments, and those same voters reelect those same politicians

Republicans openly state that they will prevent democrats from doing things, and it is still blamed on democrats

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#477
South korea and Brazil have already punished their criminal ex-prime ministers and ex-presidents. And, now France. It's high time the suit is followed here in US as well. The next right step at this point is to throw the clown behind the bars!! Serve the Justice!!!

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#478
Good. He took money from Gaddafi to finance his campaign and then aided killing him, throwing the country into a decade long civil war. How much more morally corrupt can one get?

I hope LePen goes to jail as well although it would be harder for the prosecutors to follow the money and convict her.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a country where every level of the judiciary and law enforcement is used to persecute a president, with cases so weak that they fall apart on their own, or are so obviously politicised it turns everyone against said systems, even if there is substance to the claims. But he still wins the popular vote, because he is so good and everyone else is so bad.

Imagine a felon, convicted by a jury, claiming "the case was so weak it fell apart on its own".

A felon convicted of essentially same 'crime' his opponent in the prior election committed but was given a settlement and a fine instead.

Hilary Clinton funded the creation of the Steele dossier-- which was later shown to be generally false and unsupported-- but paid for it through one of her law firms and misclassified it as legal expenses in an effort to conceal its origins.

Trump was criminally charged with falsification of business records because he paid Stormy Daniels hush money (to get her to deny her earlier claim that they had an affair) via his lawyer, and classified it as legal expenses. A visible hush money payment would have made it ineffective, just at the Steele dossier being known to be a campaigned paid hit piece would have made it ineffective.

There are plenty of things to ding Trump on, but I think if you're trying to persuade someone that the legal system wasn't weaponized unfairly against him this is a particularly poor example.

Even an argument that the facts make him worse here (e.g. maybe you say concealing an accusation of an affair says more about his integrity than paying for a false report says about hers)-- wouldn't change that this is just not a good example.

Particularly because there was nothing unlawful about the hush money payment itself-- the crime was an obscure accounting violation resulting from it... and in any other circumstance nothing would happen at all or at most, as seen with Clinton, a nominal fine would result. Sure, it's true that random details (like what state the acts in) will often decide if an act is technically illegal or not, but that's hardly an argument for the fairness of the justice system or that it was fairly applied to him.

I don't even hope to convince you of this-- but only to convince you that your example is unlikely to convince others, and is easily exploited to wrongfully convince people opposite your intentions.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#480
post #402

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

This is hopelessly naive. Heads of state should not be prosecuted in democracies. It sets a bad precedent and there is no easy way to apply the rule of law to the head of state. There are too many examples in history of abusive lawfare practices. Better not to nitpick about "crimes" in such cases and let the man disappear from the stage. Aggressive prosecutions only increase the likelihood he'll try to mount a politi…

The whole point of democracies is that the head of state, and other politicians, are just average people bound by the same laws as everyone else. They're public servants doing a job, that's it.
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