German government comes out against Chat Control • Hacker News Board

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#471

Post by KPGv2 » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:40 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #384

gambiting wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling: https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/germa... The highest band of income tax in Germany is 45% and obviously that's only on any amount over the threshold - so even if you make that much money your effective tax rate will be closer to 30% than 50%. So unless I'm missing something - I don't see how G…

> Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling: I will, because you are! Unfortunately, it's really easy because the German government applies a simple slight of hand. They call it a "gross employer contribution", which increases this band of income tax beyond the 45% you pay after the GEC. [1] It works like this: As your employer is paying your wage, amount X,…

> They call it a "gross employer contribution"

It feels disingenuous to me to see "someone else pays tax, so that counts as a tax on me" leveled as a serious argument.

Maybe it's just my cold pragmatism speaking, but if your employer suddenly didn't have to pay that tax, I don't think they would bump your salary up.

Americans make this same argument (they call it "trickle down economics"). So far, it doesn't seem to have worked out for them.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#472

Post by miroljub » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:42 PM UTC

razemio wrote: post #235

zahlman wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?

AfD has f'd up views on many things. I wouldn't even be surprised if they would vote for it, as soon as they are in a position of power. However in its current state, they would hurt themselfs with a chat control law. So yes, your a right. I would also not expect them to vote for it.

AfD is consistently the pro-choice and pro-personal-freedom party in Germany. They are the only party advocating for an unrestricted American-style free speech and against all kinds of government mandates that other mainstream political parties are pushing.

You may disagree (or agree) with many of their other views, but as an opposition party, they are precisely the corrective Germany and Europe need to keep the power-hungry elites in check.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#473

Post by zahlman » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:44 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #415

selfmodruntime wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear is not clean The EU court agrees with me. I trust it to have more knowledge than either of us. Nuclear is low-carbon. End of story. You can deal with toxic waste easily. [1] > adiating the humans of the future. Gas and coal produce more radiation than nuclear energy. > CO2 emissions are also still caused by it, and would grow when mining for nuclear material got harder by continued usage. But they would not…

You can not deal with toxic waste easily, as all attempts to do so have shown. See https://web.archive.org/web/20140508211057/http://www.bfs.de... for a report. Nuclear energy is decidedly not a flexible backup option for anything. Those plants are slow to regulate, have never been and will never be a backup. The solution is energy storage and producing so much more at the peak that at the low end is enough. Also, th…

> You can not deal with toxic waste easily, as all attempts to do so have shown.

This is, factually speaking, not what attempts have shown. cf. France, cf. Canada.

> The comparison is invalid in the first place. It's not about nuclear vs fossil

This topic of discussion started with someone explicitly making the comparison about exactly that.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#474

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:44 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #405

gambiting wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean sure, but does that actually add up to over 50% of your income? Here in the UK it works exactly the same as you described, but the NI is 10% of your income - even if you are in the highest band for incomne tax(also 45%) you wouldn't get to 50% overall, maybe if you make millions a year that average would start getting close to 50% (and if you do, congrats!) And can I comment on the fact that Germany seems to b…

No, it adds up to almost 50% of your wage . People who make millions of dollars (freelancers, company shareholders, etc) pay capital gains taxes of 25%. High earning people have capital, not a wage, either by way of company shares or asset payouts. They pay a tiny bit more tax and no social obligations You forget that the 42% band kicks in at 68000 (up until 280k) not 10k from the median wage. You pay this with 1.2%…

[deleted]

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#475

Post by dgb23 » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:44 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #374

notTooFarGone wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be our guest and enlighten us with citations!

1 second google search -> https://www.die-linke.de/partei/programm/ -> Marx's manifesto is cited among the first paragraphs -> the literal first sentence in point 3's second paragraph -> "Our goal of democratic socialism in the 21st century is a society free of domination in which all people can live in dignity." They mention the process of transforming capitalism to state mandated socialism and control of all compan…

The crux of it is that they are not anti-democratic.

German law tries to protect against anti-democratic groups and categorizes them as extremists (including left wing extremists) if they a threatening democracy.

In practice that means that group is then surveilled. If there is evidence that the group tries to overthrow democracy, they are banned.

Die Linke is in many ways _more_ democratic than other groups and parties as they support direct democracy and workplace democracy.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#476

Post by selfmodruntime » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:45 PM UTC

kharak wrote: post #441

selfmodruntime wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the defined economic model in Germany is called "Social market economy", not capitalism. It is one of the systems furthest removed from capitalism that is not yet Socialism (or similar systems). It's a regulated market economic model and it is designed to sit exactly in the middle between laissez faire capitalism and socialism. You can read this up if you like.

Not sure why you are downvoted. Social market economy is the self-description in Germany, it's what you learn in school and how German politicians name the system. The goal of social market economy is to 'correct undesirable effects' of free markets. Depending on your perspective, you categorize it as capitalist, socialist or in-between system.

> Not sure why you are downvoted.

Because the reality of this is unpopular for critics of capitalism. Most people rarely have an idea how far removed from laissez faire capitalism European countries are. This doesn't stop critics from ironically mentioning that free markets altogether don't work for example in our renter's market (which is the most restricted market we have). The ill-effects we are now feeling are from strangulating regulation, bad policy and European countries with large welfare states like France or Germany having little moveable capital to invest into infrastructure, because most of it is forever bound to welfare. Note that I'm not critical of welfare, but we have lost the plot that money needs to be earned before it can be redistributed.

> Social market economy is the self-description in Germany, it's what you learn in school and how German politicians name the system.

All this and also scholars attributing this very real system to be effectively what we have in Germany is not enough for some.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#477

Post by looping__lui » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:45 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #307

looping__lui wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, CBS News dedicated an entire episode on these “propaganda stories”… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germ... Germany’s constitution (the Basic Law) does protect freedom of opinion and expression, but it explicitly allows restrictions via “general laws” to protect personal honor, youth, and human dignity. Recent enforcement shows how this plays out…

Propaganda is painting this as something different than it is. Here we consider speech for what it is: something you can express freely, within the limits of civil society. If you pass those limits, then you incur in problems. Germany let someone speak freely a tad too much in the twenties and thirties, and they don't want to make that mistake again. I understand the point of "absolute free speech", and I would subsc…

It’s worth remembering who actually made the strategic choices that strengthened Russia’s hand and left Germany dependent and militarily weak. Those weren’t the AfD’s doing — they came from the CDU–SPD coalition governments, the same lineup that’s currently in power again.

• 2011: Under Angela Merkel (CDU) and the SPD coalition, Germany decided to abolish nuclear power after Fukushima, dismantling one of the few sources of domestic energy independence.

• 2011–2015: The same governments backed and defended Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2, tying Germany’s critical infrastructure even closer to Russian gas — despite repeated warnings from Eastern European neighbors.

• 2011: The abolition of compulsory military service further weakened Germany’s defense capacity and NATO readiness.

These weren’t minor policy missteps — they systematically made Germany more vulnerable to Russian influence.

And it’s also worth noting a historical irony: Angela Merkel’s family moved from West Germany to East Germany in 1954, one of the very few families to go in that direction. Between 1949 and 1961, roughly 2.7 to 3 million East Germans fled the communist East for the capitalist West — virtually nobody went the other way.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#478

Post by selfmodruntime » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:47 PM UTC

moooo99 wrote: post #464

Propelloni wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well. What? No. I'm an employer in Germany and I can tell you that's wrong.

People frequently hold remarkably strong opinions on a system they appear to have very little understanding about.

Yea, and it's the guy above ironically. If I add my net here [1], I can see that I land pretty much exactly at 49.7% of my wage being deducted from when my employer pays me to where it lands on my bank account.

[1]: https://www.steuertipps.de/service/rechner/brutto-netto-geha...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#479

Post by selfmodruntime » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:47 PM UTC

Propelloni wrote: post #433

selfmodruntime wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

> Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well. What? No. I'm an employer in Germany and I can tell you that's wrong.

Then you should really have a look at either your payroll or this simple calculator: https://www.steuertipps.de/service/rechner/brutto-netto-geha...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#480

Post by miroljub » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 2:47 PM UTC

jijijijij wrote: post #453

angry_octet wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits). - The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... - Europe needs to spend its savings to get nuclear going…

> The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... This is completely untrue. The Atomaustieg happened under Merkel (CDU) and was catalyzed by Fukushima. That's democracy, for you, btw. The current energy "crisis" was due to idiotic trust (CDU/SPD) in Russia's goodwill and conseq…

> This is completely untrue. The Atomaustieg happened under Merkel (CDU) and was catalyzed by Fukushima. That's democracy, for you, btw.

So, when the government does something populistic (with majority support) that is bad for the country, it's a democracy.

But when the government refuses to do something populistic (with majority support) that is good for the country, that's also democracy.

Looks like our democracy #unsereDemokratie it is not possible to do good, only harmful dealings are allowed :)