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Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

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Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#471

Post by eldaisfish »

p2detar wrote: post #458
Archelaos wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear technology is a dead end. Renewables and saving energy is the future. Nuclear and fossil are in the same boat. They are both more risky and have huge hidden costs that the general public and future generations will have to bear. The only good reason to go nuclear these days is if you want the bomb, like Iran. Interestingly, it is the same people who supported fossil in the past who are still promoting nuclear…

> The only good reason to go nuclear these days is if you want the bomb, like Iran. I‘m sorry but this is just absolute nonsense. Nuclear energy is the most dense energy type humanity ever produced. To put it in one line with coal and oil is not serious. Not to mention it’s far less hazardous to human health, again compared to fossil fuels. Here is a basic comparison: > With a complete combustion or fission, approx.…

this website is filled with people who believe that the future source of energy is entirely renewable energy. That is false, as many european countries show.

I live in a part of Canada with mostly nuclear energy and i am thankful that my electricity rates are low. This helps me reduce emissions via heat pumps and EVs. I don't need solar panels and most people do not either.

You are correct, the future is mostly renewable energy where feasible, with a combination of nuclear and hydro.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#472

Post by neurostimulant »

kragen wrote: post #80
melasadra wrote: post #19

Some people laugh at the 800W output. However, in Indonesia, roughly half of the 300 million people live in homes with an electricity capacity of 900W or less. Wish these kind of panels were available at that price here. We have pretty much 12 hours of sunlight every single day but household solar panel is discouraged by the state owned utilities.

Is it discouraged so hard that you can't get it at all? I'd think it would be pretty hard to keep people from importing solar panels from Vietnam or Thailand—although of course you'd probably have to put it somewhere that surveillance drones could see it, if you want it to get any sun. (In that case, if you have a rooftop, maybe you could put it under a frosted-glass skylight.) If anything, I'd expect the prices to b…

> Is it discouraged so hard that you can't get it at all?

The state's power company seems to stop approving grid-connected solar panel system due to oversupply. It's fine if it's not connected to the grid.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#473

Post by SapporoChris »

kragen wrote: post #103
slaw wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inner Mongolia is so far from populated areas that China build 2000 km electric power lines, as long as a car drive from Munich to Sicily.

The Messina Strait Bridge doesn't actually exist. Perhaps you are driving a hovercraft.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnyt5nPeiETVsEpP9

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#474

Post by mytailorisrich »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #246

Germany did one simple thing (uncharacteristically) which is removing all the bureaucracy here. Just go ahead and do it. It's fine. Cost in the article is cited at 550 euro. I just browsed amazon.de and you can buy complete plug and play kits here in Germany for as little as 239 euro. Most kits are priced between 300-350 euro. I did not see a many kits over 500. I pay about 70 euro per month for electricity. If it sa…

Not obvious that this is "good" for the environment overall, though.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#475

Post by pyrale »

Tepix wrote: post #405
pyrale wrote: post #267

Possibly one of the worst possible investment choices From a collective point of view when it comes to electricity. One has to question how this choice came to make sense to the german public.

Can you explain why it is a bad investment? These 800W of solar pay for themselves within 3 years usually.

They pay for themeslves when compared to your bill prices. They absolutely don't pay for themselves when compared with actual market prices for electricity generation.

Your bill is priced that way so that you can have predictable price for what you consume. That means sometimes markets electricity at zero, but you'll pay the full contract price. Other times, electricity is _much_ more expensive than your contract, and, likewise, you'll pay a fixed price.

That fixed price is not competitive with balcony solar because it pays for services that balcony solar doesn't provide. That means that on average, your solar panels produce electricity when electricity is cheap for your utility provider, and when they don't, electricity is on average (but not always) more expensive.

The logical consequence of this is that your contract is going to become more expensive, because you use your solar when it would be profitable for your utility, and you draw from the grid when it's unprofitable to them.

Another alternative would be the end of fixed cost contracts, where balcony solar users would have to pay market price + subscription for their electricity. If that was the case, balcony solar users would probably spare cents during sunny weekends, and get hammered during winter workdays when there is no wind.

edit: just checked the data, in August, Germany's prices at noon hit 0€ 17 days. On the other hand, prices at 18h soared above 100€/MWh every single day, and above 150€ 10 days in the month. In Sepetember, prices at noon hit zero 14 days.

Another (wind-related this time) example, market electricity prices this weekend were negative most of the time (with a tiny 4€ peak) for 40h straight.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#476

Post by bjourne »

mk89 wrote: post #434
slightwinder wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fearmongers are the Greens who believe that nuclear reactors will generate 3 headed fish. Nobody believes that, WTF? > In the meantime, we increased energy production through coal Partly true, but not really. Coal is also used for other energy-forms than just electricity. Nuclear Plants cannot cover those areas. In the grand scale, it might have been better to first reduce coal-usage and transition to purely el…

>Nobody believes that, WTF? Why do you think Germans voted against nuclear? It was because of fear of events like Chernobyl/Fukishima etc. Then 2022 was the final blow, with documents saying that nuclear reactors didn't produce much energy and needed maintenance anyways. Kind of like getting rid of working trains to ride bikes instead. Why not. It's healthier :) In the meantime, the world laughs at us. Literally the…

If you really think literally the whole world is laughing at Germany you are living in a fully isolated echo chamber.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#477

Post by pyrale »

adrianN wrote: post #314
pyrale wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also helps the grid by moving production closer to consumption. On the side of the grid, balcony solar means grid maintenance is supported by less revenue (your utility bill pays for the grid, balcony solar expenses don't). On the side of the producer, it means manageable production means are only amortized when balcony solar isn't producing (this isn't a small factor in a grid where electricity costs frequently…

My bill includes a fixed cost part that is supposed to pay for grid maintenance iirc.

Out of curiosity, what share of the bill is it on average?

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#478

Post by te_chris »

GordonS wrote: post #374
symbogra wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're really pushing it hard in the media here

It's being pushed hard in the UK too. Some of what the tabloids spout is just totally unhinged. It's got to the point where the media/gov could claim Russians eat babies, and many would believe it.

They deported and abducted enough kids in Ukraine, so close enough.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#479

Post by mopsi »

GordonS wrote: post #376
watwut wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) Russia is already sending drones to border countries. 2.) Russian politicians openly talk about such possibility. 3.) Russian interest in expansion is no secret. War with Russia is a real possibility. Considering NATO is not reliable anymore (due USA being less then reliable partner) , considering China seem to low key support Russia, it is not even crazy from the Russian side.

On drones: there is no evidence of that. The supposed "drone ship" that was siezed by France turned out to be crewed by Chinese and had no drones or weapons on board. A Croatian citizen were arrested regarding the drone near Frankfurt airport. Three Germans were arrested regarding the drones near Oslo. Consider what Russia could possibly have to gain by randomly flying drones near civilian airports... nothing? Consid…

  > Consider what Russia could possibly have to gain by randomly flying drones near civilian airports... nothing?
What could Russian military intelligence possibly have to gain from an arson attack on a COOP grocery store in rural Estonia? And yet, they were caught red-handed: https://english.nv.ua/nation/two-gru-arsonists-jailed-in-est... Many other Russian-sponsored terrorist cells have also been caught and are awaiting trial or have been sentenced, the most notable being a network that tried to smuggle incendiary devices aboard DHL cargo planes.

  > Oh, I forgot about the supposed Russian drones in Poland too, drones which don't even have the range to get to Poland
Then how do they reach western Ukraine every night? It's much farther away than the distance Russian drones penetrated into Poland.

  > Look at this map of NATO's expansion eastward toward Russia, and then please do tell about Russia's supposed expansion plans
Comparing European countries voluntarily joining a mutual defense pact to a foreign invasion is moronic. You could make a similar map for any major international organization: the closer a country was to Russia, the less developed it tended to be (no coincidence) and the later it joined. Has the Council of Europe been slowly expanding towards Russia and threatening them with human rights? Has Starbucks been fighting a shadow war to surround Russia with mediocre coffee?

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#480

Post by stephen_g »

p2detar wrote: post #458
Archelaos wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear technology is a dead end. Renewables and saving energy is the future. Nuclear and fossil are in the same boat. They are both more risky and have huge hidden costs that the general public and future generations will have to bear. The only good reason to go nuclear these days is if you want the bomb, like Iran. Interestingly, it is the same people who supported fossil in the past who are still promoting nuclear…

> The only good reason to go nuclear these days is if you want the bomb, like Iran. I‘m sorry but this is just absolute nonsense. Nuclear energy is the most dense energy type humanity ever produced. To put it in one line with coal and oil is not serious. Not to mention it’s far less hazardous to human health, again compared to fossil fuels. Here is a basic comparison: > With a complete combustion or fission, approx.…

Who really cares about density? The biggest thing that means is that blowing up two or three substations can cripple an entire country’s grid. Distributed energy generation and storage is actually quite strategic for national security.

It’s also massive cherry-picking to just look at refined fuel. For example, H how many tonnes of ore do you need to mine and process to produce that 1kg of uranium (at least 2.5 tonnes, that is 2500 kg from one random source from a quick google).

But to use your metric, I did work out and find it interesting that the solar panels on my roof, per kg of silicon have produced over 1,400 kWh of electricity (multiply your figures by 0.3 to take into account efficiency from kWh of heat to compare) so far. I estimate almost 28 kg of silicon in my whole array, which has generated over 38 MWh so far, and I expect they will generate at least three times that over their life.

So 4000-5000 kWh(e) per kg of silicon sure comes in a hell of a lot of better than the 2.4 odd for coal or 4 for mineral oil (assuming your figures are correct).

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