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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

riksbank.se

471–480 of 581 posts

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#471
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the EMV standard has offline card payments baked into it, and most banks in the EU and UK used to use offline transactions for contactless. Your experiences in the UK are almost certainly linked to the card issuer you were using (was it a Monzo card by any chance), and nothing to do with it being the UK. The vast majority of the legacy banks have always used offline transactions for contactless. However there has…

> However there has been a bit of shift towards online transactions Not just a bit of a shift: Offline-preferred transactions are basically a thing of the past. EU rules have nothing to do with it (offline EMV is fully SCA compliant as well, as the chip can keep count, although it's a bit annoying to keep counters in sync if there's more than one); it's mostly for risk management and simplification reasons, I believe…

> EU rules have nothing to do with it (offline EMV is fully SCA compliant as well, as the chip can keep count, although it's a bit annoying to keep counters in sync if there's more than one);

EU rules have everything to do with it. Meeting EMV with offline counters is tricky to get right. The reason I can confidently claim the SCA drove the migration of online transactions is because I was responsible for the technical implementation of SCA for a bank, and was part of the industry wide conversations that happened as banks figured out who they would comply with the rules, and tried to figure out what wiggle room existed. So I know SCA was a driver, because I talked to the people making this decisions.

> which requires asymmetric cryptography. (Otherwise, you could trivially forge valid-looking cards and offline terminals would be none the wise since they obviously don't hold the symmetric keys for every card issued; that would be way too risky).

This is where you are simply wrong. Again speaking as someone with actual experience working on this stuff, and having dealt with actual forged offline transactions as well. I can tell you the card uses symmetric encryption, the terminals themselves have zero ability to validate the signature a card produces. The terminals include some data that allows them to validate if a card number is routable, and also a hot list of card numbers to always reject, and thus reject transactions that can never be fulfilled, but they have no way of validating that a specific card or transaction hasn’t been forged.

The entire system depends on the physical security of the chips in cards to make key extraction extremely hard, and to also make the correct mimicking of cards extremely hard. But it’s hardly impossible, and there’s plenty of demonstrated EMV attacks out there in the wild. It’s just that they all hard to replicate, require special equipment, and generally make you look very dodge in the moment because you have to have a weird card with wires running your shelves so you can intercept the card comms. The manufacturer and distribution of the chips in cards is extremely tightly controlled, so you can’t just buy them. In theory anyone with a million dollars and ASIC contract could manufacture their own ICs, but there simply easier ways to steal money.

Ultimately EMV only needs provide enough security to make other methods of stealing more palatable. Cards are used for pretty low value transactions, so breaking EMV isn’t a very scalable way to steal money. You would be better off stealing products from merchants using decent pair of running shoes, rather than creating crazy ways to trick their payment terminals. Running shoes are cheaper and much more accessible than ASIC production.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#472
post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

> paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder.

Paying offline used to be the norm for credit cards, from their introduction in the 1960s until some two decades ago.

Wikipedia: [...] until always-connected payment terminals became ubiquitous at the beginning of the 21st century, many merchants accepted all charges, especially those below a threshold value or from known and trusted customers, without verifying them by phone. Books with lists of stolen card numbers were distributed to merchants who were expected in any case to check cards against the list before accepting them, as well as verifying the signature on the charge slip against that on the card.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#473
post #472
post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

> paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. Paying offline used to be the norm for credit cards, from their introduction in the 1960s until some two decades ago. Wikipedia: [...] until always-connected payment terminals became ubiquitous at the beginning of the 21st century, many merchants accepted all charges, especially those below a threshold value or from known and trusted customers, w…

These things used to be ubiquitous:

https://fragrant.mobiletransaction.org/wp-content/uploads/20...

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#474
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complex than that: The card actually has some nonvolatile storage with your current balance, which gets decremented each time you use it.

Yes, stored value cards are a very mature technology. For various reasons, they're mostly used in closed-loop systems these days (think laundromats, transit systems etc.), but historically there were open-loop deployments in many European countries, and in some countries, stored-value POS payments are still very popular, e.g. in Japan. It's a real shame that the entire world moved to online-only. Sure, it's much easi…

Stored values cards were the way French public phone booths worked when they first moved away from coins in the 80s.

There were single-use chip cards that you bought and kept in your wallet. Plain eeprom.

I remember I built a reader for them as a teenager...

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. If you need credit, there are credit options with much lower rates than what credit cards offer. And the reason credit card benefits suck is due to european interchange fee caps and regulation.

Multiple reports have shown merchants are raising the costs for all consumers to cover the credit card accepting costs. I really hope you're getting paid to pretend to be this gullible to the most basic of the credit-card companies schemes.

As a European consumer, it sounds on point to me?

There are no benefits for any of the credit cards I could get since roughly Corona - I was using them before but all cards which had positive benefits were removed/discontinued since.

Hence I'm back using a debit, because it works the same (no benefits either way) and doesn't come with a monthly bill.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We usually use an app for that (Swish, it's kind of like Venmo I guess, developed in collaboration between the six largest banks). We don't really do transaction reversals in the same way or as commonly as in the US. Paying for a used car in cash would actually be difficult because handling an amount greater than the equivalent of around USD $1k immediately starts tripping KYC/AML flags at any bank if you try to depo…

Wow... depositing more than $1k would trigger AML. That's incredible. In the US it's not uncommon for contractors to pull $10k cash at the end of a week to pay their workers. Some of that may be due to tax evasion or, just as likely, the workers being in the country illegally. I suppose this is another major reason cash is still "tolerated" in the US, because the casual labor market depends so heavily on undocumented…

Generally there are never any transfer fees for private individuals doing domestic transfers. The banks just provide that service for free and eat the cost. Businesses wanting to accept payments via the Swish app usually pay a flat rate of the equivalent of approximately USD $0.15 per transaction (exact terms depends on which bank you use).

It's also worth noting that credit card interchange fees are price controlled in Europe; there's a EU directive that caps the interchange fees at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. Because of this, cashback on credit cards is pitiful in the EU; you can get 0.5% cashback but not much more than that.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#478
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think happens to the cash at the end of the day? Managing cash has costs too, they're just harder to quantify: you have to ferry it to a bank, you have increased risk of theft, fraud, and robberies, you need extra time to actually check the register etc. And then you risk losing business if you don't offer card payments because it's just more convenient for most customers (you may like wise lose some if y…

One big difference is that there's competition between cash handling providers, while there's essentially zero wiggle room for interchange fees. That's what makes interchange and network fees so much more problematic than acquiring fees. There's very healthy competition between credit card acquirers and payment service providers on both features and price, but in the end, you have to accept whatever card your custome…

In the EU the authorities have recognized the power of the card networks and introduced price controls on interchange fees in 2015, capping them at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#479
post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

I would not assume the central bank of Sweden would mean credit cards only. Debit cards are extremely common for card payments.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#480
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people that like cheques? For no good reason, I keep a list of why I use checks (in the U.S.): - Charitable donations because charities maximize every penny, and electronic contributions eat into that - Paying the accountant - Good accountants make every penny count, and aren't interested in paying credit card overhead. - Tipping the paperboy at Christmas - Tipping the doorman at Christmas - Business licens…

UK perspective: - bank transfer - bank transfer - cash - cash - direct debit - bank transfer or PAYE - direct debit - standing order (recurring bank transfer) - direct debit - card - ? You pay your employer what you were paid for jury service? Bank transfer I guess, but also probably illegal - would likely be deducted on payslip (because tax & accounting implications of below market value gift) or via a third-party t…

> ? You pay your employer what you were paid for jury service? Bank transfer I guess, but also probably illegal

That happens when you are salaried and your company pays you your normal salary for the time you are in jury duty. They already paid for your time, they are entitled to the (generally much lower) compensation that the state pays you.

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