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Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

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Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#471

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

sporkxrocket wrote: post #448
csours wrote: post #137

History books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.

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Events like this have often been used as trigger to implement measures that were already planned. The nazis did that a lot (Reichstagsbrand, Kristallnacht), You could argue that Israel used the October 7 attacks to accelerate efforts to get rid of the Palestinians. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld used 9/11 to invade Iraq which they had wanted to do long before.

I am definitely worried what Trump and republicans will do as a response.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#474

Post by panarky »

sporkxrocket wrote: post #448
csours wrote: post #137

History books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.

[flagged]

HN has thousands of comments debating the justification for killing tens of thousands of non-combatants in Palestine.

More posts debating the justification for killing 11 people in a boat in the Caribbean who did not pose an imminent threat.

HN rules do not prevent any of these discussions.

But here we have a individual who advocated those killings.

Here we have an individual who publicly justified school massacres by saying those senseless deaths are a worthwhile price to pay for gun rights in the US.

On HN it's perfectly fine to justify all this violence, to argue that the violence is regrettable but necessary, but any equivalent discussion about this one individual is somehow beyond the pale.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#475

Post by Quarrelsome »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #349

I bang on a lot about not saying things like "this person is a threat to democracy" and other such apocalyptic statements. This right here is a perfect example of why: when you steep people in a culture that tells them someone is (or their ideas are) an existential threat, eventually someone is going to be the right level of scared + unstable that causes them to kill people to try to defend their way of life. If you…

> because there can be no moral justification for celebrating murder

As someone of Eastern European origins I would celebrate Vladimir Putin's murder, especially since he's responsible for the murder for so many in Ukraine today (both Russians and Ukrainians). I think the reality is a touch more nuanced than the absolutist ethical stance.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#477

Post by ants_everywhere »

mothballed wrote: post #359
ipython wrote: post #346

I was just at a conference today where one of the presenters referenced the "Trust barometer": https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer According to that study, 23% approved of the statement "I approve hostile activism to drive change by threatening or committing violence". It's even higher if you only focus on 18-34 year olds. Full report here: https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2025-0..…

Is it possible that violence is just more rational for today's 18-34 y/o than it was at some other points in recent history?

unlikely.

A more likely explanation is that pro-violence propaganda began swamping social media in 2016, which is 9 years ago. 18 year olds have been exposed to it nonstop since they were 9 and 34 year olds since they were 25.

The people who are disposed to anger and violence move along the radicalization sales funnel relatively slowly. But already once you've shown interest, you start seeing increasingly angry content and only angry content. There is a lot of rhetoric specifically telling people they should be angry, should not try to help things, and should resort to violence, and actively get others to promote violence.

Being surrounded socially by that day in and day out is a challenge to anyone, and if you're predisposed to anger it can become intoxicating.

A lot of people want to say marketing doesn't work or that filter bubbles don't matter. But the bare facts are that we've had nearly a decade of multiple military intelligence agencies running nonstop campaigns promoting violent ideology in the US. And it would be naive to think that didn't make a difference.

The same sort of campaigns were run at a smaller scale during the Cold War and have been successful in provoking hot wars.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#478

Post by perihelions »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #432
ipython wrote: post #346

I was just at a conference today where one of the presenters referenced the "Trust barometer": https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer According to that study, 23% approved of the statement "I approve hostile activism to drive change by threatening or committing violence". It's even higher if you only focus on 18-34 year olds. Full report here: https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2025-0..…

This week in Nepal, before all the other news hit the fan, GenZ did exactly that, and overthrew the current leadership. 30 lives were lost along the way. The military took over for security purposes, and asked the leadership of the movement whom they wanted for an interim government. It was not the happy, peaceful democracy we all long for. It was a costly victory. But I feel happy the legitimate grievances the prote…

"Not peaceful" is an understatement. They burned innocents alive.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/new-updates/former... ("Former Nepal PM Jhala Nath Khanal’s wife Rajyalaxmi Chitrakar burnt alive as protesters set his house on fire")

IMO it's far too early for anyone to declare any kind of victory, in that unresolved, chaotic power vacuum. No one can guess where that will go.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#479

Post by e40 »

sporkxrocket wrote: post #448
csours wrote: post #137

History books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.

[flagged]

It's a big deal because he's very important to part of the 30% that supports DJT.

This is the sort of violence that begets more violence.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#480

Post by isleyaardvark »

sporkxrocket wrote: post #448
csours wrote: post #137

History books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.

[flagged]

There was a school shooting in Colorado within about an hour of when Kirk got shot
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