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Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

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Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#472
Interesting sci-fi plot device but seems far-fetched, not gonna lie. To think that our highly stable universe is just compressed mass of another universe is a lot to take in. Does that black hole emit Hawking radiation as well and shouldnt our universe lose mass in result? And how exactly can our universe expand if the size of the black hole is fixed?

Well, at least it does make for interesting conversations. Someone will surely milk it for Youtube content.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#473
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Block Universe. The more you think about it, the more probable it seems. Why should a universe pass time like a movie, if all moments could exist simultaneously? If there is no time, and it’s just a simulation formed in our brain, there doesn’t have to be a beginning nor end.

However, a complete lack of time doesn't fit with our observations and we can measure relativistic effects where time gets distorted (e.g. fast moving particles that last much longer than you'd expect due to relativity)

GR is compatible with a block universe. If anything, the relativity of simultaneity strongly suggests that we live in a block universe!

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree with the above comment, doesn't that make you an atheist, not agnostic?

I used to think that I was an atheist, but I realized nothing can be proven presently in any way even if I have opinions, so I decided I have to be agnostic. So e.g. I have hunches that there's no way there is a God that's in any way as religions might think it is, and I do have a hunch that we somehow happened from probably deterministic chain reactions, but it's a hunch, it's hard to call it a belief, or it's hard…

>So e.g. I have hunches that there's no way there is a God that's in any way as religions might think it is, and I do have a hunch that we somehow happened from probably deterministic chain reactions, but it's a hunch, it's hard to call it a belief, or it's hard to think that I believe there is no God.

Saying that you know for certain that there is no god(s) is exactly the same as saying you know for sure that there is a god(s). Being agnostic is the realization that you can't be sure one way or the other. We are not omniscient and our reasoning abilities are not flawless. You might have your strong suspicions one way or the other about whether there is a god, but if you aren't certain (as many people are) I consider that as agnostic.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree with the above comment, doesn't that make you an atheist, not agnostic?

Atheists are people that don't bleieve there is a God. Agnostics are people who don't know they are atheists. -- Aron Ra

That just seems to me a terribly flawed statement. I'm agnostic. Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't, who am I to know? It always seems like incredible hubris to me when someone claims not only to know for certain one way or the other, but project their baseless beliefs onto others.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#476
post #350

The article is based on a physics paper (arXiv:2505.23877), not management theory or institutional metaphors. What the paper actually proposes is that the Big Bang may have been a gravitational bounce inside a black hole formed in a higher-dimensional parent universe. Quantum degeneracy pressure stops the collapse before a singularity forms. From the outside, it looks like a black hole. From the inside, it evolves as…

>in a higher-dimensional parent universe

That's incorrect: The parent universe is not higher-dimensional, it's the same good old 3+1 as our universe.

What they propose is: Let's take our good old GR, and start with a (large, dilute) compactly supported spherically collapsing collapsing cloud of matter. During that, you get an event horizon; afterwards, this looks like a normal black hole outside, and you never see the internal evolution again ("frozen star", it's an event horizon). Inside, you have the matter cloud, then a large shell of vacuum, then the event horizon.

Quantum mechanics suggests that degeneracy pressure gives you an equation of state that looks like "dilute = dust" first, and at some point "oh no, incompressible".

They figure out that under various assumptions (and I think approximations), they get a solution where the inside bounces due to the degeneracy pressure. Viewed from inside, they identify that there should be an apparent cosmological constant, with the cosmological horizon somehow (?) corresponding to the BH horizon as viewed from the outside.

All along the article, they plug in various rough numbers, and they claim that our observed universe (with its scale, mass, age, apparent cosmological constant, etc) is compatible with this mechanism, even hand-waving at pertubations and CMB an-isotropies.

This would be super cool if it worked!

But I'm not convinced that the model truly works (internally) yet, too much hand-waving. And the matching to our real observed universe is also not yet convincing (to me). That being said, I'm out of the cosmology game for some years, and I'm a mathematician, not a physicist, so take my view with a generous helping of salt.

(I'm commenting from "reading" the arxiv preprint, but from not following all computations and references)

PS. I think that they also don't comment on stability near the bounce. But I think that regime is known to have BKL-style anisotropic instability. Now it may be that with the right parameters, the bounce occurs before these can rear their heads, and it might even be that I missed that they or one of their references argue that this is the case if you plug in numbers matched to our observed universe.

But the model would still be amazing if it all worked out, even if it was unstable.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#477

Interesting read, but even if we assume the author is correct, and the cosmos formed as a black hole in a larger universe, the question remains, how did this larger universe formed, then? Might just be impossible to know.

I feel like quantum physics is gently pointing us towards the idea "everything you can imagine is real at once". As in, all possible universes and physics systems and whatnot do exist in some sense of this word, and we happen to inhabit one. Just like Earth is a totally unremarkable planet in a totally unremarkable solar system in a totally unremarkable galaxy, except we popped up here so for a long time we thought t…

I find it more useful to anchor the concept of "real" in what one has direct access to. Beyond that there are many ways to describe our shared reality and the space of possible realities, including the past and future, some of which are more real than others, and go far beyond what we can imagine. Quantum physics gives us a language to expand what we can describe and imagine.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the paper actually proposes [...] (Emphasis mine) I haven't read the paper yet, but this sounds like a (good) summary of exactly what the article is saying. It makes me wonder what, if anything, you feel is different from the way you put it and the way it is explained in the article? As a layman they seem the same to me.

The article was written by the main author of the paper, so yes, it's a good summary :)

I meant that the parent comment to mine was a good summary of the article.

However, the comment was worded as if it meant to highlight some difference between how the article summarized the paper and what the paper is actually saying. Since I couldn't see a difference between the above poster's summary and that in the article, I was curious what I was missing.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#479
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, wow. That was great. His solution seems so simple and clears all the previous model's problems. I guess every black hole could contain its own universe.

Ironically that was basically the first thought many had when it was clear we cannot explain what happens in the edge case of a singularity. It was always "perhaps another unsiverse or a way into a parallel one". It still leaves a lot of questions though, especially if you try to marry quantum mechanics to these makroscopic models. Where did the initial black hole come from and should a corresponsing anti matter blac…

Well that's an indsight bias if I've seen one. This is the first time I ever read that the "bottom" of a black hole could be a entirely new universe. If there ever "always was" a common hypothesis, it was the wormhole.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think c is a good candidate, because it's not really a parameter. It's just a correction factor for our mis-judgment in picking different units for time and space. In "natural units", we define the units so that the important conversion factors (c, G, h-bar, etc) work out to exactly 1. You can say that c is one light-year per year and then forget about it. The true parameters of the universe are the dimension…

> I don't think c is a good candidate, because it's not really a parameter. dont be so sure! there is no way to experimentally know if c is a parameter or not. there are consistent physics formulations which have variable, even anisotropic c. physicists dont usually explore them (e.g. tangherlini relativity) though because the math is considerably harder.

Physicists (and in particular the subset doing physical cosmology) don't usually explore parametrizations of c because they're not clearly physical (and sometimes even clearly unphysical), or alternatively don't help solve astrophysical or cosmological problems.

Relativists sometimes like to explore things that make using the Tangherlini transformations rather than the Lorentz transformations look positively benign. (To be clear, the Tangherlini synchronization system is clearly unphysical, requiring infinite speeds. His thesis also proposed using a distinguished global frame, which is not really philosophically different from how the standard cosmological frame is used, and seems OK because the distribution of stress-energy can pick out useful systems of coordinates in standard relativity. Unfortunately his method frustrates and probably outright breaks comparisons between inertial reference frames related by a boost, which the standard cosmology does not, and it's hard to see an alternative method that preserves his central ideas.)

But why even be stuck with 3+1d spacetime like Tangherlini? He was trying to do physics. But an unphysical metric signature with 47 plusses and no minuses is really cool!

In our observed universe, FAPP, c is the same everywhere after recombination, and we get that from spectral lines. You have to play really weird games to preserve the Lyman-alpha forest's apparent isotropy while introducing spacetime (or redshift-space, here) anisotropy. Things like BAOs make the problem even harder.

If we strip away all that pesky radiation and the information its structure encodes, analysing variations of c gets a lot easier. A relatively recent paper (Lewis & Barnes 2021) I enjoyed considered anisotropy in the one-way speed of light in an FLRW cosmology with zero energy density (well, really the convenient Milne model, which is also far from spatially flat). "So far, we have considered two cases, where either the speed of light is isotropic, or the extreme case where the anisotropic speed is 1/2 in one direction, and infinite in the other. The question remains whether this holds true in general case, for an arbitrary κ": https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/publications-of-the-... (arxiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.12037>). "For more general cosmological models, where the presence of mass and energy results in curved space-time, the picture is more complicated as there is no simple mapping of the modified Lorentz transformations into the general relativistic picture. We leave this discussion for a future contribution."

Sadly there doesn't seem to be a future contribution yet, at least going by published citations (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=2012575105829699847...>). (Of those, I've put the Chamberlain paper on my to-read pile; you'd appreciate how it relates to Tangherlini, "credence is given to one-way infinite light-speed inward to each particle in direct comparison against Einstein’s isotropic (c=constant) light-speed").

Of course there's also the excellent Magueigo 2003 VSL overview https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0034-4885/66/11/R...> copy https://cds.cern.ch/record/618057/files/0305457.pdf> preprint https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0305457>.

And even if you can make sense of an f(c) cosmology in the early visible universe, you will get to epochs before recombination and try to make sense of the later universe's chemistry, which of course relates to big bang light nucleosynthesis, baryogenesis and electroweak ssb. How do you abolish Lorentz symmetry in those epochs? Good luck!

(I mean, I think if you are doing physical cosmology you ought not to ignore gauge theory...)

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