Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which doesn't contradict what I wrote. I daresay a lot of families who travel once a year at Christmas pay bag fees for their big bags. Lots of people who travel on a regular basis don't. And a lot of it seems to be on discount airlines. (Which I admittedly never fly.)
It actually literally contradicts what you said. People flying any amount (at christmas with their family) are paying bag fees.
Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
471–480 of 533 posts
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#472Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Suppose people making $1M+ are taxed at 20%, and everyone else is taxed at 25%. That model is not analogous to the credit card situation, in multiple ways. Among other things, it's framing this as a "tax" (which isn't inherently the right model), and presupposing that the origin of the "tax" is the credit card interchange, and mapping the "rewards" programs to a discount on the "tax" but not mapping anything else (…
>That model is not analogous to the credit card situation, in multiple ways. Among other things, it's framing this as a "tax" (which isn't inherently the right model), and presupposing that the origin of the "tax" is the credit card interchange, and mapping the "rewards" programs to a discount on the "tax" but not mapping anything else (e.g. free checking or the availability of credit instruments that wouldn't otherw…
The cherry-picking in question, here, is that you are choosing a model that claims the rewards being paid to richer people are a subsidy of the rich by the poor, by attributing one input to one output, while ignoring everything else in the system. Think about double-entry accounting for a moment: would it be reasonable to point to one inflow and one outflow and say "this inflow paid for that outflow!" as a serious model, without looking at anything else in the system? And in particular, would it be reasonable to claim that as the "core point" and demand that people refute that point while ignoring any evidence invalidating the oversimplified "one inflow, one outflow" model that privileges that point and treats it as the core point?
To draw an analogous argument, which is faulty for the same reason the credit card rewards "subsidy" argument is faulty: if a store offers a "bulk discount", is that a subsidy from poor people (who may not be able to afford to buy or store in bulk) to rich people (who on average can do so more easily)? Using the same modeling you're describing would paint it as such: poor people pay more for the same goods. I would argue that it's more accurately modeled as an incentive offered by the store that they see as on net bringing in more revenue? Do you expect that the store, upon receiving that higher revenue, needs to use it to somehow lower the prices paid by poorer people to compensate? And if they do not use it as such, and instead pocket that additional revenue or use it in some other way, does that suddenly make this a subsidy from poor customers to rich customers?
I am, in general, in favor of the argument of analyzing a system's net effect and not just its intentions. But it's faulty to analyze a subset of the system and then attribute fault or foment outrage based on that simplified model of the system.
If you want to argue that the entire system is not the perfect system, or that it could be improved, you'll get no argument from me. If you want to argue that, in general, "having money is a massive advantage for getting more money", again, that's entirely true right now.
If you want to argue that you've shown a specific subsidy of the rich by the poor, I think you haven't given evidence to support the validity of that model. And in particular (and to my mind the more important aspect of that argument insofar as the point of arguing about systems is to evaluate potential changes to them), if you want to argue that in a different system with no interchange, poor people would pay less for the same goods than they do in this system, I think you'd need more of a model of the overall system to successfully argue that. In particular, among other things, 1) would merchants actually make more in that alternate system rather than making less (which the observation that merchants make more money from higher-income customers calls into question), and 2) would merchants actually pass that savings on, specifically, to lower-income customers, which the observation that they don't currently charge different prices for different customers calls into question, and 3) would some other part of that system change as a result that makes things worse in other ways, such as products like cards or checking accounts (a checking account is a credit instrument) no longer being available to people with lower income or lower credit scores?
I'm not making this argument because I think the financial system is perfect and shouldn't be changed, or that the financial system overall is fair. I'm making this argument because the oversimplified model that foments outrage by claiming a subsidy of the rich by the poor is a bad model for the purposes of reasoning about the system and attempting to make it better. Criticizing that model and arguments based on that model isn't based on wanting to preserve or advocate for the status quo, it's based on wanting to accurately model the world as a step towards evaluating potential improvements.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are a low profit business, and that kind of liberty is stuff that pushes their profits even lower. They also always fail to differentiate from one another and are always competing on only price and how much fees they can keep hidden. Personally, I do argue that it's worth it having tickets 10% more expensive and forcing the companies to always allocate all passengers, treat people humanely and etc. It's even wor…
> It's even worth it the 25% increase to make them let people carry luggage You are asking for people who fly without checked luggage (as I usually do) to subsidize you.
Anyway, the fact that you just assumed I personally fly with luggage is weird.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#475Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you missed the last bit of GP's sentence (even though you quoted it literally on your own): > to get the full value of my money. No one is forced to understand the system, but that means leaving some indeterminate amount of money/value in the hands of the predatory airline.
I didn't. If you wanna save money, you figure it out. If you don't wanna figure it out, you leave money on the table. They're selling (negative) convenience, but that's pretty much by design.
You already have to spend time researching airlines, buying tickets in advance, etc. but now in addition to that there is a completely contrived layer of bullshit I need to know about.
You can extend this concept even further and imagine literal series of hoops that you must jump through to earn “cash back” on your ticket at the end of the flight.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#477Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you at all concerned the airlines will remove the air from the cabin if you try this, just to emphasize that you’re not going to get a refund this way? Anyway I’ll be across the aisle with hydrogen balloons paying less than you either way. Enjoy your flight!
I’ll be up in first class with my negative mass doppelgänger who travels with me so we both get a free flight.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#478Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t know why you’d trust the guy that works for a credit card processor telling you that credit cards are fair, actually. And Twitter doesn’t show threads unless you’re logged in btw, so you just linked Patrick’s opinion.
This is not an argument from authority (though I would in fact give some credence to a domain expert with a demonstrated reputation for diligence and accuracy, here). This is an argument backed by evidence refuting an article not supported by evidence. (Also, the argument is not "credit cards are fair". The argument is "credit card reward programs are not a subsidy of the rich by the poor".) > And Twitter doesn’t sho…
Patrick’s argument is flawed because it assumes that if the interchange fee pays more than the cost of providing benefits, then it’s not a “subsidy”.
This is false because the interchange fees, and in fact all of the fees, have to pay for the entire company’s operations, not just for your points program. Without more detailed data it’s not possible to rule out the possibility that points programs are a subsidy for the rich.
The second assumption he makes is that volume is the same across the board. It’s not, there’s way more customers on the lower end, and the company charges them even more fees. So sure, rich customers individually pay more interchange fees, but the company could still be making most of its money from poor customers.
Unfortunately without knowing the CC company internals we have no way of knowing. Which means that Patrick’s opinion while being an educated guess is still just a guess, so it doesn’t refute anything.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
>That model is not analogous to the credit card situation, in multiple ways. Among other things, it's framing this as a "tax" (which isn't inherently the right model), and presupposing that the origin of the "tax" is the credit card interchange, and mapping the "rewards" programs to a discount on the "tax" but not mapping anything else (e.g. free checking or the availability of credit instruments that wouldn't otherw…
Leaving aside other inaccuracies in the model, and leaving aside insulting non-responses like "that's a lot of words" that inherently penalize analyses of a complex system and favor oversimplified models even when incorrect... The cherry-picking in question, here, is that you are choosing a model that claims the rewards being paid to richer people are a subsidy of the rich by the poor, by attributing one input to one…
Is this just word lawyering over what "subsidize" means? I can understand how strictly speaking, rich people getting more cashback (or lower taxes) isn't exactly a "subsidy", because they're still paying more than "their share" into the system, but most people would still think the arrangement is unfair. Call it "regressive" or whatever, but I still think it's a valid complaint.
Re: Airlines are charging solo passengers higher fares than groups
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
>but it's not routine Retailers often have weekly sales. If that's not "routine" what is? Is it only "negotiation" if it's happening on a per customer basis? Moreover apps with targeted offers is literally doing that. The company is assessing a given customer's willingness to pay, possibly on a daily basis, and sending offers/coupons in response.
It's price discrimination in that different people have different tolerances for spending time and energy on hunting for deals. I'm sure not lining up at 6am for Black Friday sales though I may take advantage of a President's Day sale if I need some large electronics anyway. It's not really negotiation as the term is normally used. The process is pretty different.
I never argued it's not price discrimination. In fact I was arguing the opposite, that price discrimination is the same as "negotiation", and it's alive and well in modern times. It might not be "negotiation" in the sense there's two parties going back and forth, but the end goal of negotiation is price discrimination. If coupons and apps do the same thing, does the fact that you're not talking to a salesman really matter?