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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#471

Post by esperent »

badc0ffee wrote: post #400
Tade0 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister's friend brought a microwave oven once and started making grilled cheese sandwiches during recess. He was told to unplug and never bring it again, but it was not confiscated. My classmate brought a super-sized calculator to class for tests, as he had a medical condition which allowed him to bring "a calculator". The buttons made a lot of noise but, again, it was not confiscated.

Can you make grilled cheese in a microwave?

Probably some disgusting prepackaged microwavable "cheese" sandwiches.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#472

Post by myrmidon »

ndriscoll wrote: post #443
myrmidon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is that schools purpose is teaching everyone not only a common baseline in language/math, but also how to deal with expectations/responsibilities and other people (teachers and classmates). By doing "early segregation" you make this more difficult because that "common baseline" no longer exists; you'd expect to get significantly more people that struggle with language and basic math as a result (in exchange f…

I would expect everyone at all levels to do better under a more highly segregated model. In the desegregated model, faster students are artificially held back and slower students are left behind (unless the class operates at the level of the absolute slowest student). In a segregated model, you are better able to approximate a mastery learning approach, which is known to create vastly better outcomes for everyone. Th…

I'm quite skeptical about the improved performance for everyone from earlier segregation; this neglects the negative feedback effects from sticking low performers together I feel, and I dont see how you preserve any semblance of "common baseline", meaning that counting on a kid knowing some prerequisite concept is gonna be a complete gamble (especially after school transfer).

Your outcomes as child are also likely to plummet if you ever get sorted into the wrong bucket, which I feel is super unethical.

Personally I also really question the whole concept of pushing a grade schoolers "performance": What do you hope to gain from it? Looking e.g. at asian english tests I can see a likely worst-case outcome: Genuinely difficult and stressful tests (that even native speakers would struggle with) that just test some meaningless grammatical minutiae.

I fully agree that having optional programs and learning opportunities for talented/interested children is a very good thing, but I don't think dismantling the current system would really help at providing those (and they are always gonna be an additional cost, just like more segregation would be in practice). I also think that attempting to railroad children into (or out of!) those options is not desirable at all.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#473

Post by tristor »

vichle wrote: post #465
tristor wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do not have a _right_ to kill anybody ever. However, you do have a _right to defend yourself_, within reason. That could in some situations mean that you take actions that kill someone. You are trying to indicate a difference where there is none. It's not me that decides another person's life is less than what they're trying to rob me of, it's them by taking an action that necessarily forfeits their life when I…

You are working under the assumption that everyone who takes property also wants to do physical harm. It's very sad. Most people who take property are otherwise peaceful individuals and more importantly, they are rational just like you and me. They do not want to risk a bigger penalty by using force. Your mindset is one that escalates any given situation. With your mindset you are putting yourself in much more risk t…

You are working under an assumption that someone who /takes/ by force is satisfied with the taking. I am working from years of data and my own experiences.

It is sad. Communities should help everyone within them so that nobody has a need to commit crime. Unfortunately many people commit crime because they don't care about others or have deep mental issues, not out of need.

On average 1% of the residents in communities in the US are responsible for >70% of the crime, including the most violent crimes. Who are those 1%? Repeat offenders. Those who have made crime their lifestyle and feel no conscience towards their victims. They are not "otherwise peaceful individuals".

I am American, but unlike most I am well traveled, speak multiple languages, and volunteer regularly in my community. No amount of wishful thinking will change the fact that a small portion of the population feels entitled to commit harm to others with impunity and they are unconcerned with killing or maiming decent people while in the process of their crimes. You should be prepared to defend yourself or all you have is hope that you get lucky.

Rather than trying to make me into a caricature so you can dismiss me, maybe you should also look at the data or go meet some of these people who commit crimes through volunteerism.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#474

Post by GreenWatermelon »

creatonez wrote: post #462

Why does this unpopular campaign get to spam to Hacker News? It's pretty obvious someone is coordinating these posts to influence this community. Posts and comments that gesture to the idea of banning kids and teens from using phones seem to get rapidfire posted all day long, with little mention of the lack of expert consensus on the topic, or anything that suggests phone bans actually hurt social wellbeing.

Or maybe technically-adept people are very aware of the dangers of the addiction rectangle?

Pretty sure a lot of people would like to reduce the reach of brainrot-boxes on our society. This garbage is worse than cigarettes for kids.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#475

Post by dvngnt_ »

CYR1X wrote: post #390
dvngnt_ wrote: post #383

Bringing my first android phone to school in high school helped me learn linux when i was into rooting. I don't think phones are the problem. I think it's more social media. Schools find it less effort to ban phones vs how to work with them. The nanny state is a troubling trend

Phone bans in schools have been going on for 20 years. Yeah we didn't have smart phones back then, but with tactile buttons kids would text each other without even looking at their phone and keeping it in their pocket. Before phones kids were playing snake on their TI-83 when they weren't in math class. At it's core these devices are just a distraction when they're supposed to be paying attention.

We've have smart phones since ~2007 and you're right students did use t9, they could also be doodling in class not paying attention.

I find it weird that all of these schools have contracts with https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch. It's one thing to discipline a student who has their phone out it's another thing to compel all students to give up their own devices or install managing software used to spy on kids.

This isn't really about helping them succeed. It's more about training them to accept being watched and controlled all the time. Instead of teaching kids how to manage their attention or use technology responsibly, we're teaching them that they don’t own their time, their devices, or even their personal space during the school day.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#476

Post by tobir »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

Those are reasons for her to have a phone, not a smart phone that has unfiltered access to p*rn, social media among other highly addictive material.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#477

Post by tobir »

geremiiah wrote: post #29

Is it possible to fight Internet addiction without banning stuff? While it helps to ban smartphones during school, it won't stop these kids from logging on for 5 to 7 hrs after school. We need to find ways to make people (not just kids) more resilient to Internet addiction without resorting to widespread bans, which are both hard to implement, unlikely to keep people away long term and dangerous for other reasons.

Can we fight smart phone addiction without removing the smart phone from children's pockets?

Now replace 'Smart Phone' with anything else that is addictive. It's not rocket science folks.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#478

Post by DiggyJohnson »

bluGill wrote: post #378
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing a minor inconvenience right?

The world is still better with smart phones and not having that inconvenience. Now there are other downsides of smartphones. We do need to mitigate them. However lets not throw out the good just because of the bad.

I don't think you're taking seriously the opposite position that the world is not better with smartphones. I mean that seriously.

I do take your point though, this is probably the most reasonable, sane position:

> We do need to mitigate them. However lets not throw out the good just because of the bad.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#479

Post by badc0ffee »

esperent wrote: post #471
badc0ffee wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you make grilled cheese in a microwave?

Probably some disgusting prepackaged microwavable "cheese" sandwiches.

Turns out you're right: https://foodisstupid.substack.com/p/can-you-make-toast-in-yo...

The hot pockets "crisping sleeve" makes this possible.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#480

Post by ndriscoll »

myrmidon wrote: post #472
ndriscoll wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect everyone at all levels to do better under a more highly segregated model. In the desegregated model, faster students are artificially held back and slower students are left behind (unless the class operates at the level of the absolute slowest student). In a segregated model, you are better able to approximate a mastery learning approach, which is known to create vastly better outcomes for everyone. Th…

I'm quite skeptical about the improved performance for everyone from earlier segregation; this neglects the negative feedback effects from sticking low performers together I feel, and I dont see how you preserve any semblance of "common baseline", meaning that counting on a kid knowing some prerequisite concept is gonna be a complete gamble (especially after school transfer). Your outcomes as child are also likely to…

What would be the negative feedback effects? Are we talking misbehavior? If so the ultimately needed solution there is to discipline them. If it's merely being a slower student, then being among other slower students means the teacher can move at a more appropriate pace, so should see improvements.

If you get sorted into the wrong bucket, it shouldn't be a huge deal. e.g. my elementary school had I think ~5 classes per grade level, so you have bands for 20%iles. Teachers can target the center of their %ile band for pacing. With a desegregated model, teachers end up targeting somewhere below the median student for everyone, so people in the top 50%ile and bottom 20%ile are all poorly served. You don't have to necessarily stay in your band either; if you do well, move up. If you do poorly, move down. If you're primarily segregating by ability, not age, then you might need to e.g. move into a younger cohort's top performing band to get onto the right pacing, but you don't need to lose much time. This is in contrast to today's system where if you're not close to the median, probably half your time in school is wasted.

In larger schools, you could potentially group kids into 15-10%ile bands. The tighter the bands, the less of an issue if they end up in the wrong band (assuming they're not completely misjudged). Personalized education is again the limit of this approach. The closer you get to that, the better kids will do.

As far as curriculum goes, I don't see why you couldn't have a baseline. The faster kids would just get through it faster, and maybe move onto more optional topics. The slower kids would progress more slowly, hopefully with a slightly higher end target than we set for them today.

Hopefully the thing high performing kids gain is to maintain their interest in academics instead of having it beaten out of them by moving at what is for them a snails pace. Testing them on larger volumes of meaningless minutiae is exactly the opposite of the goal. e.g. don't give them extremely tricky arithmetic/algebra problems; teach them calculus, linear algebra, mechanics, chemistry, etc. Teach the grown-up topics, but let them learn it when they're ready instead of holding them back several years.

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