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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#471

Post by saagarjha »

blinded wrote: post #211
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

1000% this. My partner is in the medical field, the absurd schedule they put up with and the amount they are required to work when tired is the worst. Some close friends do contracting / construction, it takes a tole on their bodies. People that take above senior level roles or "FANG" jobs should expect to grind.

I've worked both senior level and FANG jobs and I did not expect to, nor did I, grind. Some of my colleagues have though out of necessity and I do not want them to be in a position where this is expected of them.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#472

Post by saagarjha »

nosefurhairdo wrote: post #243
ornornor wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your employer doesn’t need you to buy food or pay for a roof over their head. You need your employer to stay fed and housed. There is a lot more downside for you than your employer, thus a massive power asymmetry. The only way to restore the balance is solidarity between workers and it’s usually a union (or a guild)

I don't need my employer for that either, because they're competing for my labor in a market with many other employers. It would be extremely costly to replace me because of the critical role I have on a highly profitable product. If anything, I'm the one with leverage, which I use every year to request more pay, fancier titles, and larger responsibilities. Realistically, if I were laid off today I'd likely land a be…

> It would be extremely costly to replace me because of the critical role I have on a highly profitable product.

> If circumstances changed such that it made sense to lay me off

Companies don't always do things that make sense.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#473

Post by borgdefenser »

gonzo41 wrote: post #308
blinded wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% this. My partner is in the medical field, the absurd schedule they put up with and the amount they are required to work when tired is the worst. Some close friends do contracting / construction, it takes a tole on their bodies. People that take above senior level roles or "FANG" jobs should expect to grind.

Just because doctors have internalized the propaganda that they need to work that hard doesn't make it true or correct. People who take senior roles are paid for the things they are accountable for. They don't have to do 80 hours in front of a screen, they need to drive outcomes and be accountable.

[flagged]

Re: The Burnout Machine

#475

Post by saagarjha »

umeshunni wrote: post #319
jakelazaroff wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these things can't be true at once†: 1. Tech workers are currently treated as well as (or better than) we would be without unions. 2. Unions would cause companies to offshore jobs to developing markets with similar talent. If unions don't increase worker compensation, why would they cause companies to offshore jobs? Conversely, if companies could acquire comparable talent in emerging markets for less money, w…

>If unions don't increase worker compensation, why would they cause companies to offshore jobs? Because unions are a headache for management to deal with and that headache is much worse than compensation, which is a budget-line item, and doesn't personally impact anyone in management. The AWU, for e.g, has political goals that represent what a small minority of Alphabet employees want but end up being a pain in a for…

I assure you that management tracks budget-line items very closely, especially when they are the largest one (as is the case at almost all software companies).

Re: The Burnout Machine

#476

Post by saagarjha »

echelon wrote: post #201
__loam wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can offshore your job because you joined a union they can do so if you didn't join one too.

It's more likely they'll offshore the union job. Unions lead to an ossified workforce where nobody does more than what is essential. New employees are jealous of tenured employees with more benefits. Once people get tenure, they'll take advantage of their status. This leads to lower productivity, not higher productivity. Without a union, you have people fighting to show their seniority and leadership at every level.…

> Unions lead to an ossified workforce where nobody does more than what is essential.

> It will likely lead to many more "lifers" who work at a single job for a long time. This leads to less knowledge and skill mobility, tighter code ownership (less fungible, less exposed to new ideas), and this will certainly lead to ossification of organizations and business functions.

Funny, you just described basically every large company I have ever worked at. None of them were really unionized (one did have a union but it was very small).

Re: The Burnout Machine

#477

Post by saagarjha »

paulcole wrote: post #349
itsgrimetime wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. Or maybe pay that’s proportional to the value we provide

It’s always proportional to the value you provide. You just don’t like the proportion lol. What specific proportion do you think is fair? And how do you calculate the value you provide?

I mean, the same question can be asked of my employer.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#478

Post by hackable_sand »

Minor49er wrote: post #235
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> Or take a gap year to regenerate, or reinvent, yourself. I'm curious about people who have done this and how they've handled things like insurance, taxes, and getting back into the workforce after such a long gap. It seems like a big risk since there's no guarantee of employment. I'd also imagine having a long break would be looked on unfavorably by interviewers and make it harder to get back in

It's highly circumstantial depending on the person. I'm a better person for the challenges I'm facing, but I don't recommend it. I'd rather be compensated for the code I write.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#479

Post by saagarjha »

rockemsockem wrote: post #76
swatcoder wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is clear that they're talking about "billion dollar tech companies" for an audience of those people called to them. You're right that these are not the only place that people can write software and that many of us have recognized for a very long while that these are noxious places to write software, or that they were eventually going to become so. Billion dollar FAANGs and their smaller, cargo culting, sha…

I strongly do not think that things like 80 hour weeks, abuse, uncaring managers, and especially AGILE of all things are super common at FAANG. If you join a startup (in any industry) I think there's an understanding that you will probably work over 40 hours a week and that things will generally be hectic. Many companies will openly advertise this and tell you if you ask. I really found myself wondering who the audie…

I have friends who are extremely smart where this is not the case. Some of them didn't know other options were available. Some did not have the bandwidth to interview.
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