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No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

robkhenderson.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#471

Post by caeril »

jjk166 wrote: post #322

This whole article is talking about absentee fathers, but every example is listing why the mother left or kicked out the father. Nowhere in the article is mentioned the obvious common denominator - women are no longer utterly dependent on their husbands. People didn't stay together more often in the 50s because the couples were better, or because people were held to higher standards, it was because getting out of a t…

> the mother left or kicked out the father

> the world has changed, mostly for the better

Yeah, maybe. There have been a few analyses on this topic, and depending on the source, the live-in boyfriend or stepdad is somewhere between 2 and 8 times more likely than the biodad to physically or sexually abuse the kids.

If you're going to divorce the father in order to "find yourself" or whatever contrived excuse you need, you should at least take a vow of celibacy or something.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#472

Post by mindslight »

positr0n wrote: post #82
motohagiography wrote: post #67

simply, when a boy is dependent on his mother's approval for a sense of self it's all the justification he needs, and there is almost no increasingly-terrible situation in which a mother will not love her son. the worse his life, the more he depends on her, the less abandoned she is. it's the definition of a co-dependent cycle. Maybe he replaces her or shares that role with other women, but he ends up in the same cyc…

> The entire culture war is between people who resent their dads for being absent or weak, and those who don't. Are you saying that having an absent father or not determines your views on trans people, abortion, saying Merry Christmas vs happy holidays, DEI, etc?

Yeah there are some interesting ideas in there and I respect the ideals of open debate and exploration of these topics, but this is by far the weakest part of the comment. I'm also finding it difficult to infer which tribe that is supposed to apply to - similar accusations are often lobbed at the blue tribe for supposedly wanting the state to act like a father, but I think performative masculinity in general speaks much more to a lack of strong male role models. So maybe it's better to assume the problem across the board, and perhaps only modulated by political tribe - the first comment on the original blog post speaks to the phenomenon even extending to other cultures.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#473

Post by lolc »

caeril wrote: post #471
jjk166 wrote: post #322

This whole article is talking about absentee fathers, but every example is listing why the mother left or kicked out the father. Nowhere in the article is mentioned the obvious common denominator - women are no longer utterly dependent on their husbands. People didn't stay together more often in the 50s because the couples were better, or because people were held to higher standards, it was because getting out of a t…

> the mother left or kicked out the father > the world has changed, mostly for the better Yeah, maybe. There have been a few analyses on this topic, and depending on the source, the live-in boyfriend or stepdad is somewhere between 2 and 8 times more likely than the biodad to physically or sexually abuse the kids. If you're going to divorce the father in order to "find yourself" or whatever contrived excuse you need,…

Well the first part about who is likely to be an abuser I can see how one would argue that. But why focus on the mother about what she should be doing in a divorce? Responsibility for the children rests with both parents! Even if in the end it's often the mother actually stepping up.

I find that's a central part of the article, that societal pressire for men to look after their children is lacking. And they don't on their own measure up. There's no easy answer, and telling the mothers they are responsible for absentee fathers is too easy a take.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#474

Post by leereeves »

endofreach wrote: post #449
portpecos wrote: post #366

> Amy, a white thirty-year-old mother of three, ages six, five, and three, had a boyfriend who worked steadily but insisted on spending on selfish pursuits. This is what eventually broke the young couple up. ‘He wouldn’t spend money for the kids’ food. I had to send my kids across the street to my mom’s to feed them and stuff. That’s what I got fed up with. I shouldn’t have to live like that…I said it’s time for him…

[flagged]

A man stands up for himself and won't let himself be exploited by someone like you.

Dating someone doesn't create any obligation to give them or their family money. Neither from the woman to the man nor from the man to the woman.

Dating didn't even create such an obligation in the old days of strict gender roles where men were expected to provide.

And all you've written here is just a string of insults attacking someone for refusing to allow themself to be used.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#475

Post by rramadass »

codeforafrica wrote: post #445
rramadass wrote: post #325

A lot of this is only applicable to Western Societies. IMO this is entirely due to the breakdown of Family and Social structures in the name of so-called Freedom/Progress. When you have no Structure/Discipline imposed on you by Society/Culture your Freedom of Choices become too much to handle and you simply give up and choose nothing.

I see more single mothers here in Africa than i have ever come across in western countries. Lack of work leaves men unable to care for their family causing them to simply give up and walk away, leaving the mothers to fend for themselves. I see no supportive structures, discipline or culture to counteract that. I haven't been here long, so my impressions are not founded on a lot of experience, but it looks like what i…

I would wager that in terms of percentage of population the situation in Africa is not that bad as in Western countries. Some very poor countries may suffer to a larger degree but not Africa as a whole.

To give a counter example, take a look at India and China, the two most populous nations. In both cases there is a huge migration from rural to urban centers but Social expectations, Cultural norms, Family structure and Economic necessities give youngsters something to strive for. In China in particular; you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City. And yet the situation is not dire like what is being painted in the article in spite of many problems. In India the rural to urban migration is not that vast compared to China so the effects of Family/Social/Cultural structures are even more stronger.

Freedom/Progress needs to be balanced against Structure/Discipline for any Society to thrive. This is the reason all societies from ancient times always put Family/Clans at the center and enforced Discipline via Religious diktats/Cultural norms/Social mores etc. While many of these should be revised in the modern context their complete dismantling has left many adrift and in a existential crisis.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#476

Post by leereeves »

9dev wrote: post #422
portpecos wrote: post #366

> Amy, a white thirty-year-old mother of three, ages six, five, and three, had a boyfriend who worked steadily but insisted on spending on selfish pursuits. This is what eventually broke the young couple up. ‘He wouldn’t spend money for the kids’ food. I had to send my kids across the street to my mom’s to feed them and stuff. That’s what I got fed up with. I shouldn’t have to live like that…I said it’s time for him…

When dating someone with children, but you don’t want to go all-in with that person, please just leave: you’re not only making the life of your partner miserable, but also destroy their child’s or children’s. You will invariably end up walking away at some point, and the children will witness all of the ensuing mess. If, however, you have an intention to stay, there is no reason to make a distinction between their mo…

He's made his expectations in the relationship clear. It's entirely up to her whether she accepts that or leaves.

There's nothing "sexist" about that. The only sexism here is expecting a man to pay for dating by supporting her kids.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#477

Post by leereeves »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #394
portpecos wrote: post #366

> Amy, a white thirty-year-old mother of three, ages six, five, and three, had a boyfriend who worked steadily but insisted on spending on selfish pursuits. This is what eventually broke the young couple up. ‘He wouldn’t spend money for the kids’ food. I had to send my kids across the street to my mom’s to feed them and stuff. That’s what I got fed up with. I shouldn’t have to live like that…I said it’s time for him…

> Sweetie, we’re not married, so there’s no reason for you to expect I feed your children. Dating a single parent isn't a strictly transactional affair. And it may be financially beneficial (for everyone) to not marry yet still cohabitate and pick up the slack in childrearing. YMMV.

It may indeed be financially beneficial, but that is an arrangement they must both agree to.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#478

Post by big-green-man »

Doches wrote: post #229
nikanj wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good conversationalist, etc. Have you not noticed how much more we expect from men as partners? NB I’m not saying we shouldn’t expect more from them. I’m saying many are seeing the list of demands, and opting out of even trying

> Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good conversationalist, etc. I...honestly cannot tell if this is meant ironically. Those things seem like table stakes for being an adult. It's not "expecting more of them" to simply expect people to...grow up, and help care for the other people in their lives. You w…

Being the perfect adult is table stakes? This description is the ideal middle class man. If that's table stakes to you, either you've got one hell of a catch or you've got a few more years left before you settle. Most adults, full grown adults, men and women, don't meet all those requirements. I do, most don't.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#479

Post by caeril »

lolc wrote: post #473
caeril wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the mother left or kicked out the father > the world has changed, mostly for the better Yeah, maybe. There have been a few analyses on this topic, and depending on the source, the live-in boyfriend or stepdad is somewhere between 2 and 8 times more likely than the biodad to physically or sexually abuse the kids. If you're going to divorce the father in order to "find yourself" or whatever contrived excuse you need,…

Well the first part about who is likely to be an abuser I can see how one would argue that. But why focus on the mother about what she should be doing in a divorce? Responsibility for the children rests with both parents! Even if in the end it's often the mother actually stepping up. I find that's a central part of the article, that societal pressire for men to look after their children is lacking. And they don't on…

> often the mother actually stepping up

I don't think the evidence bears this out. It's often the mother's lawyer optimizing her post-divorce income (via child support) by agitating for as much of the custody split as possible, in a family court system that is systemically biased against fathers being awarded custody. I will edit this with citations if I find time later.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

#480

Post by paulryanrogers »

rramadass wrote: post #475
codeforafrica wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see more single mothers here in Africa than i have ever come across in western countries. Lack of work leaves men unable to care for their family causing them to simply give up and walk away, leaving the mothers to fend for themselves. I see no supportive structures, discipline or culture to counteract that. I haven't been here long, so my impressions are not founded on a lot of experience, but it looks like what i…

I would wager that in terms of percentage of population the situation in Africa is not that bad as in Western countries. Some very poor countries may suffer to a larger degree but not Africa as a whole. To give a counter example, take a look at India and China, the two most populous nations. In both cases there is a huge migration from rural to urban centers but Social expectations, Cultural norms, Family structure a…

> In China in particular; you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City. And yet the situation is not dire like what is being painted in the article in spite of many problems.

This sounds like its own kind of dire.

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