Live data from Hacker News

The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

drericlevi.substack.com

471–480 of 521 posts

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#471
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMA is not a union, it's an association, akin to the National Association of Realtors, or even the "National Association of Photoshop Professionals." There are big differences between a professional association and a union. For starters, a Union would likely demand required overtime pay for the on-call shift, a cap of max hours worked, likely plenty more. I'm not in a position to judge whether those kinds of demands…

One thing that a generic union has in common with the AMA specifically is that both only care about its members, not anyone else, and will vehemently argue in favor of things that enrich its members at the direct expense of everyone else.

The overlap of commonality does not mean a lot, a professional association is not a union, a union is not a professional association.

I think there is unstated subtext perhaps in your criticism. To one extent, a unions job is to care about its members. It is _not_ the unions job to care about anyone else. If the union acts in the interest of anyone other than its members, it is not doing its job. I think that criticism is more of a definition almost. The seamstress union was not created to care about the CEO and managers, but seamstresses.

It's hard to say a bit whether union benefits always do come at everyone else's expense. I'm reminded of the argument against $15 minimum wage. According to one third of business owners in 2021, it was going to cause layoffs. [1] That did not happen in Seattle where that was tried, instead the data shows: “Seattle’s minimum wage ordinance appears to have delivered higher pay to experienced workers at the cost of reduced opportunity for the inexperienced,” [2] Despite the data, there is still the claim that mass layoffs would be necessary.

I think this perhaps dovetails into the debates of trickle-down (AKA supply side economics) vs bottom-up economics. Be what it may, not everything union is good, yet you can still thank them anytime you have a weekend. [3][4][5] I'm just saying, be cautious when painting with a broad brush. The idea a union helping its members will always be at everyone else's expense strikes me as an anti-union talking point rather than something grounded in firm data. Could be true, but without citation showing that to actually be extensively true, I do not take that statement at face value.

To be sure, the _only_ claim I'm making here is that a union and professional union are not the same thing. I'm super skeptical of all these other claims/statements being made and am not really willing to accept anything on face value here without evidence, particularly broad generalizations. The points I raise I think bring some refutation to those generalization, which does not mean the inverse is true, but simply that those generalizations are neither helpful nor informative.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/10/one-third-of-small-businesse...

[2] https://fox59.com/news/heres-what-happened-when-seattle-rais...

[3] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/09/viral-imag...

[4] https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/eight-reasons-than... (this source is very biased)

[5] https://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html

edit fixed citation links, one was missing. Added more citations in support of claim that unions are to thank for the weekend (please correct my history if wrong, my point is that historically, in the concrete, unions have done some really good things [assuming you believe not working an average of 102 hours per week is a good thing as was the case for building tradesman in 1890 [5])

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#472
post #454
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is pointless without also increasing the number of medical student slots.

The AMA doesn't control the number of medical student slots either. They have no regulatory or accreditation authority. Medical schools are free to add more students, and several entire new medical schools have opened in the past few years. https://www.deborahgutmanmd.com/blog/new-medical-schools-upd... The immediate bottleneck really is in residency programs. Every year, some students graduate with an MD/DO degree b…

In the late 1990s, the AMA lobbied to reduce available residency positions and residency funding.

https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope...

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems are aversion to technology in places, unwillingness to adopt new (human) protocol/processes, entrenched proprietary technology, that does not adhere to standardized formats. Say you want to save a report for a patient for the next shift. That report needs to enter a computer system. If there is a system for that, it will most likely be a very expensive overpriced proprietary solution with expensive suppo…

> The problems are aversion to technology in places, unwillingness to adopt new (human) protocol/processes, entrenched proprietary technology, that does not adhere to standardized formats. It is not. This is a classic example of assuming the problem exists within the realm of your current understanding. The stereotype of people in medical roles not wanting/liking/understanding technology is wrong. What we don't like…

I happen to know someone who works in a hospital, in a lab, looking at blood samples. The stories I often have to hear about how little technical knowledge people working in the hospital have, or at least apply to what they are doing on their job are ... not very encouraging, to say the least. So I am not actually as clueless about how hospitals run, as you might assume.

It is not all doctors, but also other personell at hospitals. But also doctors. Some are known to take too little blood from patients to run proper tests. Or too little urine. Or use the wrong containers for the samples. All very avoidable, if people did not refuse to learn abour their own job's processes. People can be, and are often very learning resistant, especially non-technical people, when it comes to learning technical processes, new software, or new workflow processes.

What is more is, that hospitals run on lots and lots of proprietary machines. But they do not always run them correctly. No, even when being told, that the machine must not be in a room warmer than X degree Celsius, they run them above that temperature anyway. Sometimes without better option, because they do not have the appropriate rooms for running them according to how they should be run. Don't get me started on proprietary protocols and file formats, probably wheel-reinvented by an intern or an evil genius, who was told to make interoperability with machines and programs of any other manufacturer impossible.

Yes, you may be a well-oiled team running the place at work, but some of what you write makes me think, that you are part of the problem, refusing to put things into written form. In software engineering many (but not enough yet) have long learned, that what you do not document properly will eventually get lost and might need to be rediscovered. If you cannot write down your thoughts regarding a patient, what happens, if the next day you have an accident and cannot tell anyone your custom interpretation of measurements? What if your coworker or fellow doctor, who understands all your subtle signaling like some raised eyebrow, cannot make it to work tomorrow? And do you really want to handle patients based on whether your coworkers eyebrows behaved, when you were talking to them on shift change/handover? I hope not.

Basically what you describe sounds like a very person dependend process and leaves lots of room for mistakes, when things are not explicitly spoken or written. It may be, that inputting everything into some IT system takes a lot of time. Maybe you need better methods of inputting things. It is a valid concern. But your kind of attitude "tech will never be able to capture our work" is not helping anyone. A good solution will naturally involve countless hours of observation of processes in the hospital. That is what business process modelling is all about. Of course the process needs to be captured and analyzed. That however, is a 2-way street:

Sharing all the little signals and what they mean with some observer of processes is essential. They needed you to tell them these things. If you think the tool is "fisher-price", then why haven't you told the people, who came up with the solution? Did you sit there silently, saying nothing? If so, then who is wasting other people's time? Or did no one actually observe the processes and came asking about your work and how you do things? If so, then that is a really bad process of trying to improve things and I am sorry you were treated badly and not not surprised by the result.

Who thinks that they can solve all the problems without observation will fail, especially in a hospital. But that is not the matter I was getting at. I don't know where you are a doctor or so, but at least from the stories I get to hear from the hospital, I know that hospital staff has lots to learn in terms of following processes and saving time by knowing a little bit about the work of other departments, like the lab.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#474
It's a bit scary how mostly smart people writing here seriously believe doctors are a "cartel" blocking preparing of new doctors. It's scary how you just ignore obvious facts like that the problem is present in any developed country. You really believe there is an international mighty cartel of doctors, what could influence like governments and private universities as well? Even would it be so, who would benefit from the lack of doctors? It's bad for simple doctors, because the workload is greater, it's bad for doctors in leading positions, because finding new staff for their teams is more difficult, and it's bad for patients, because the doctors are chronically tired and worn out and in some areas they even got a problem just to get an appointment soon enough, because local doctors are overloaded and got a full shedule for many months in the future.

The explanation of the situation is not a mythical cartel, but the simple facts: - Any additional place for a medical student at a university costs a lot of money, and nobody wants to spend money to fund its creation. - The people in developed countries get on average older and need more medical service and consequently more working hours of doctors. - The quote of women among students is constantly growing. In my country Germany we had ca. 70% men and 30% women among students like 30-40 years ago. Now the quote is like 70% women and 30% men. Nothing bad at that, but a lot of female students get soon a family, a bunch of children and since that never ever work full time anymore.

Stastitically we got so much doctors as never before in the history, but the sum of working hours in the country is lower, while the needs are getting higher because of olding population.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#475
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like we need something between nurse and doctor. Or is actual nurse already suffice for this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner is a title I've seen.

So what's the drawback of this? Because otherwise this sounds like what's actually needed.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problems are aversion to technology in places, unwillingness to adopt new (human) protocol/processes, entrenched proprietary technology, that does not adhere to standardized formats. It is not. This is a classic example of assuming the problem exists within the realm of your current understanding. The stereotype of people in medical roles not wanting/liking/understanding technology is wrong. What we don't like…

I happen to know someone who works in a hospital, in a lab, looking at blood samples. The stories I often have to hear about how little technical knowledge people working in the hospital have, or at least apply to what they are doing on their job are ... not very encouraging, to say the least. So I am not actually as clueless about how hospitals run, as you might assume. It is not all doctors, but also other personel…

Imagine telling a doctor how to be a doctor because they "happen to know someone who works in a hospital". Oh how I would love to have you shadow me on the floor for a week.

> If you think the tool is "fisher-price", then why haven't you told the people, who came up with the solution?

Because they react just like you did.

You perfectly demonstrated why I moved over to the software side. The doctors I work with are sick of the hubris from people who don't understand medicine, so we decided that it will take doctors who are willing to learn software development to actually solve our problems. It turns out it's much easier for doctors to learn how to develop software than it is to teach devs how to be doctors.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#477

One of my friends I grew up with was “that kid;” smartest in the community, funny, played a mean guitar. Everyone loved him. Top of class. Harvard. Harvard med. Top placement for residency. Something happened during that time and he killed himself. It was absolutely unexpected from all of his friends. Shocking to say the least. Apparently it turned out to be stress from work, his hours, his fear of failing. Who will…

Can't medical doctors have duty time limits like aircrews. Wouldn't that alleviate some of the overwork.

In the US, there is a cap for residents: 80hrs per week, but averaged over a 4 week period so individual weeks can go over

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#478
I've aspired to become a doctor since I was a boy, I have managed to carve out a unique career out of medicine and I get to work at home and I have a lot of support, I spend hours working on what I love. I work with doctors who tell me I would make a great doctor. I think there is just too much resistance to getting into medical school.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't medical doctors have duty time limits like aircrews. Wouldn't that alleviate some of the overwork.

Last I heard (this was early 2010s) at least it Texas, it was capped at 80 hours/week for residents. Seems like a lot but probably better than the 100+ they used to pull.

80 hours a week, averaged over a month. So individual weeks can still easily go over to 100+

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, they are a big problem, but they're not the only problem. It is received wisdom among doctors that increasing the number of doctors causes medical costs to go up, and it is generally also the position of the state. The doctors are simply wrong; the state is correct from a pernicious point of view. Because the state is responsible for buying so much of the total supply of medical care, they generally view t…

So you’re saying that increasing the number of doctors will result in more medical services being consumed which means higher costs for the gov? That’s the view of the government?

Yes.
Post reply on HN