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I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

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Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#471

Post by hinkley »

Aurornis wrote: post #396
steveBK123 wrote: post #204

One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. There are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. If you have a very competitive interview process and hig…

> here are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. I've worked on many high-performing teams where you couldn't find 6%, or 1-in-18 of people who shouldn't be there. However, I've never worked for an entire fast growing company where I couldn't readily pick out 1-in-18 people who were clearly underperforming and everyone knew it. Hiring…

It’s only 1 in 18 if you have the attention span of a goldfish.

If your hiring quality is uniform, there’s only about a 5.6% chance the new guy gets fired next year. Instead they’ll go after someone else. For an average tenure of 3 years that’s closer to 1/6 chance of ending up on a PIP. Higher if they hand out extra PIPs in order to hit the quota.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#472

Post by scarface_74 »

closeparen wrote: post #456
roncesvalles wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CS grad >time and motivation to grind >pass an interview Let's be honest, what more are we looking for?

Ability to deliver the projects? Be a pleasant, reliable collaborator? Teach, learn, critique, take feedback, adapt?

I agree with you and my interviewers that I conduct are always more behavioral. Most of the positions I interview candidates for are for bog standard CRUD jobs that anyone can do technically. The deciding factor are the traits you mentioned.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#473

Post by hinkley »

tanjtanjtanj wrote: post #469
Aurornis wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. I've worked on many high-performing teams where you couldn't find 6%, or 1-in-18 of people who shouldn't be there. However, I've never worked for an entire fast growing company where I couldn't readily pick out 1-in-18 people who were clearly underperforming and everyone knew it. Hiring…

If you work for a company that lays off 6% of the "fat" every year and then still continues to have 6+% of the company considered "fat" then the issue isn't the 6% of the people, it's the structure, culture, and practices of the company.

Let’s call a spade a spade. It’s not an “issue” it’s abuse. This is abusive behavior.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#474

Post by pierat »

notjoemama wrote: post #391

I’m going to rant for a sec… Glad I’m not smart enough, nor care to put the work in, to pass a FAANG interview. I’ll stick to stupid crud land tyvm. This PIP behavior is just one more reason I consider their employment a kind of abuse. I’m human and I refuse to be compromised so easily. Pathetic (to me). Closest I got was an interview at what I’ll call a molar company (want to be FAANG). I asked the HR screener if th…

If anything, calling these abusive companies' practices out is what's needed, including the name of the company and the roles.

When they can hide behind "molar company", yeah, they will never change that practice. Instead, if you said the name, at least we'd know what to keep an eye out for.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#475

Post by throwrhpip »

francisofascii wrote: post #212
pixelmonkey wrote: post #156

Many years ago, when I worked in high finance, it was common knowledge that 3-5% of the staff would be fired every 1-2 years, all at once. This created a lot of tension every time rumours swirled that the "culling" was coming up. But, when you were fired, you were simply given a phone call, out of the blue one day, told to come to an office, and then offered a severance package based on your years of service, and esc…

If you are put on a PIP, at least you have some time to start looking for a new job. The takeaway seems to be, one on a PIP, put all your effort into finding the next job rather than trying to keep your current one.

I learned that the hard way.

I should have known better.

Far better to consider the PIP your 30 days' notice.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#476

Post by hinkley »

linster wrote: post #348
fatnoah wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. FWIW, when I was a manager at a FAANG, the numbers were closer to: Underperforming: ~12% Meeting or Exceeding: ~80% Better than exceeding: ~8% As for my own anecdata, for the roughly 100…

As a Canadian, “better than Exceeding” sounds like an American construction. I’d imagine the scale to be: 1. Not Meeting Expectations 2. Meeting Expectations 3. Exceeding expectations

“Meeting or exceeding” is the American construction. If I’m exceeding I expect a big raise, or at least talk of a promotion (maybe next year). Starting a phrase with “meeting” puts a iscount on it.

Of course we are talking about companies that are paying too much in the first place, so maybe they’ll be forgiven for trying to bring the slope down a bit.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#477

Post by impute »

gangstead wrote: post #378
wyldfire wrote: post #195

> That next day, I called my manager and I told them I was resigning. They blew a gasket — absolutely blew a gasket I don't understand how someone could be responsible for a policy that puts people's livelihood at risk under the headline of "just business things" and not expect the same treatment from their employees. "sorry boss - just looking out for my shareholder: me"

The manager was probably mad because they wasted a PIP on someone else. From other accounts here I've seen that if your manager gets any inkling that you are leaving they will throw a PIP on you to meet their quota.

So you mean when they resign instead that PIP no longer counts towards the manager's quota and they have to find someone else?

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#478

Post by 93po »

scarface_74 wrote: post #339
francisofascii wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, Assuming you will be fired eventually and will have to fall back to a normal CRUD job is the right play when taking these high pressure, high salary roles. Any idea why you were PIPed after 3 years?

I was peripherally involved in a project that was going sideways and I was an easy target. In hindsight, while the reason for me to put “on focus”, I honestly admit was maybe 70% my fault. I could have handled a horrible customer better. On the other hand, the PIP itself was a setup. During the focus period, I met all of the criteria and had perfect CSAT scores on two customer projects I led (Professional Services) a…

I don't know if this feels like I'm diminishing your accomplishments, but it's nice to hear your advancement out of CRUD development in your 40s. I'm mid 30s now and have always struggled to get out of this web development rut and jobs that pay $100k despite having 8+ years experience (which is admittedly lackluster) and multiple senior titles.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#479

Post by 93po »

scarface_74 wrote: post #454
jejeyyy77 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol yeah, I'm not even willing to commute 30 mins to a local office let alone relocate. Maybe for a mid 7 figure pay day.

At this point in my life, I can honestly say there is no realistic amount of money I’m willing to give up for my lifestyle. It’s not my dream to make a lot of money. It’s my dream to do exactly what my wife and I are doing right now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36767599

Same. Anything over $200k really means very little to me. I'd rather live in a place I love, which fortunately is actually Seattle, haha.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#480

Post by closeparen »

scarface_74 wrote: post #472
closeparen wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ability to deliver the projects? Be a pleasant, reliable collaborator? Teach, learn, critique, take feedback, adapt?

I agree with you and my interviewers that I conduct are always more behavioral. Most of the positions I interview candidates for are for bog standard CRUD jobs that anyone can do technically. The deciding factor are the traits you mentioned.

Technical skills can very much be the barrier to delivering CRUD projects, but it is usually more like troubleshooting, debugging, unscrewing your dev environment, understanding the behavior of your framework and database engine, leaving yourself good log messages, etc.
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