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Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

philip.greenspun.com

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Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#471

Post by antifa »

jorvi wrote: post #127
Retr0id wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that! Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, b…

> Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. Meanwhile the most frequent complaint I read about USB-C is trickster/confusing cables or hubs because they don’t support everything

I have more trouble using Amazon's useless filters or finding products that even try to be more specific than just "USB-C".

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#472

Post by picture »

linuxdude314 wrote: post #320
picture wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing technology to human lifetimes doesn't seem very relevant. Even not accounting for broad categories like "fire" or "language", we're still using individual technology from "long ago" like knives, forks, pen and paper, etc. It's fine to make improvements that keep backwards compatibility (more ergonomic scissor should be able to cut the same paper), but changing connector just because it's old is unwise. The…

Absurd comparison. It’s completely irrational to compare computer hardware is if it’s just some tool. If you don’t need the bandwidth, good for you. The rest of us choose modernity and nice things like, USB-C hard drives, network adapters, etc… USB-A is not a connector, it’s a whole spec. You can’t get the same performance out of that connector as you can a USB-C connector.

I'm perfectly fine with higher bandwidth connectors, but don't force it on the majority of users who do not need the modernity and nice things. Have Type-C as a dedicated high bandwidth connector and don't force me to use it on my devices that don't need the high bandwidth.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#473

Post by layer8 »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #436
layer8 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.

PC motherboards are often like a study in the history of PC motherboards with vestigial functionality that hasn’t been in widespread use in decades. That’s a fairly poor indicator, and I think it largely happens to buffer the feature sheet, take advantage of cheap pricing on components over time, and copy and paste functionality in their design software. It’s over. The only place for a USB-A is on an aftermarket USB…

There is no incentive for manufacturers to use USB-C over USB-A for applications that neither use charging nor need above-USB-2.0 speeds. A lot of peripherals and gadgets fall into that category. Another factor is the limitation on available PCIe lanes depending on chipset. If you can provide 8-10 USB ports, you won’t be able to give all of them USB 3 speeds, and having USB-C ports with different speeds on the same device would be weird, as there is no color-coding mechanism like with USB-A.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#474

Post by makeitdouble »

dwaite wrote: post #195
makeitdouble wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the return of the HDMI and SD card reader so refreshing but also so puzzling. On one hand that's what we asked for. On the other hand it was in the same wave as giving up on the touch bar, slowing (stopping ?) the evolution of the iPad, no touch support on the laptops when the design changes were hinting at it. Basically it felt like they froze the hardware form factors in time to solly focus on the ARM trans…

> On one hand that's what we asked for. On the other hand it was in the same wave as giving up on the touch bar, slowing (stopping ?) the evolution of the iPad, no touch support on the laptops when the design changes were hinting at it. Apple typically tries for a fixed design cycle - the 2016 MacBook Pro design changed in 2021, so you can hypothesize when the next significant revision. Loud voices stated that pros h…

> Loud voices stated that pros hated the keyboard, hated the Touch Bar, hated having to use dongles to do certain tasks like give a presentation or pull in photos from their camera. People also waxed poetic about MagSafe.

Yes, if we compared the current laptop lineup to 2015's, the only real significant changes are USB C and the 14" notched screens. Internals radically changed as well as performance, battery life, and that's where Apple is keeping the focus (rightly so given the reaction to the current models, where the consensus seems to be to not touch anything anymore outside of the battery and the chips).

> The iPad has had hardware revisions since then (it has gone from A15X to M2)

Yes, same path as the mac where internal changes seem to be the priority. The biggest change for me was the introduction of the cantilever keyboard as an option, which as you point out went along with Mac-like features coming in the OS.

In contrast, in the same time span Microsoft introduced the Surface Studio line (the elusive 2+ desktop and the widely loved but crazy expensive laptop) and the Surface Pro line that directly answered the "What's a computer ?" question Apple was asking. Looking at the numbers [0] it seems they found a decent niche where the iPad has stagnated for so long.

I think Apple could have interesting ideas for the next iPads, but as you say, no leaks whatsoever at this point probably means it's at least a year down the line, and if it's a real big change the iteration process will need that much time (and they should take their time. A half baked prototype would be killed on the spot after such a long wait)

[0] https://www.windowscentral.com/hardware/laptops/microsoft-su...

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#475

Post by TheKitchenSinc »

TylerE wrote: post #132
lxgr wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very good point. It doesn’t stop some manufacturers from still shipping the “forbidden” adapter type for just that use case, though. I prefer USB-A for FIDO authenticators for that reason (and because the plug is more robust for USB-A and basically indestructible; C plugs can and do get bent on a keychain).

I have yet to see a bent usb c (not saying it couldn’t happen, but… It’s have seen multiple crushed USB A connectors.

As some anecdata, I work in facilities with hundreds of non-tech folks using USB-C Yubikeys and we see multiple bent connectors daily. Granted, our userbase isn’t known for treating electronics kindly…

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#476

Post by yencabulator »

holoduke wrote: post #225
arcticbull wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I surely have. Any even semi-public USB power socket is hanging on by a thread, some of them have the inside paddles snapped off entirely. I haven't seen a Type C one in such a state yet, but I eagerly await it.

The problem with usb c (but also mini and micro) is the weak connector on the device itself. The way its connected to the board is way weaker than a large usb a connector on a motherboard. Accidentally pullen a keyboard while attached will for sure destroy a usb c port. A usb a most likely survive.

Simply put your money where your mouth is.

Framework laptops come with expansion cards that are on sturdy rails and serve as the world-facing USB-C/A/HDMI/SD card/whatever connection. The inner connector on the mainboard is well protected.

https://frame.work/assets/pdp/expansion-card-9240577483dc9e2...

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#477

Post by yencabulator »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #322
arcticbull wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I surely have. Any even semi-public USB power socket is hanging on by a thread, some of them have the inside paddles snapped off entirely. I haven't seen a Type C one in such a state yet, but I eagerly await it.

Never seen a broken public A port, but maybe it was because the A port was already there for a decade and got good wear while public C ones are relatively new? And I think many people still use A to C cables on the go because those ports are way more common, so they just get a lot more wear.

The terminal seating at LAX has both 110 VAC plugs and USB-A plugs where the cable falls out as soon as you let go of it.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#478

Post by w4f7z »

userbinator wrote: post #290
nine_k wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still we live with power sockets and lamp sockets that hark back to Edison times, more than a century ago, and live relatively happily. Backwards compatibility with millions (and hundreds of millions) of existing devices is a powerful force. While I'm in favor of USB-C connector eventually replacing USB-A connector completely, I think it's best done gradually, with new devices still offering the occasional USB-A sock…

New mobos still have PS/2, especially the higher-end ones. Edit: don't believe me? https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-AORUS-TACHYON-rev-... 1 x PS/2 keyboard port 1 x PS/2 mouse port

IIRC PS/2 ports are actually an extreme overclocking feature as they are more likely to continue to function at borderline stable clocks.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#479

Post by al_borland »

userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

I recently moved my display over to running on USB-C, so I could have one cable to charge my laptop and feed the display. Plugging it in was a very unsatisfying experience. The port seemed misaligned, so I had to be a fair amount of effort into it, and once I got it, it felt like nothing. I was worried when I rotated the monitor back into position, or adjusted the hight, that it would fall out. I haven’t thought about that in years with other ports. It works, and I like that it’s one cable, but the feel is awful.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#480

Post by iknowstuff »

userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

Seems fine on MacBooks
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