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Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

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Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#471

Post by gfodor »

torstenvl wrote: post #441
crazygringo wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're confusing business with politics. You're right that a literal coup d'état is the forced takeover of a state with the backing of its own military. But in the business and wider world, a coup (without the d'état part) is, by analogy, any takeover of power that is secretly planned and executed as a surprise. (We can similarly talk about a company "declaring war" which means to compete by mobilizing all resour…

Your post is internally inconsistent. Defining a coup as "any takeover of power" is inconsistent with saying that firing Sam Altman is a coup. CEOs do not have and should not have any power vis-à-vis the board. It's right there in the name. Executives do not have any right to their position. They are an officer, i.e., an agent of the stakeholders. The idea that the executive is the holder of the power and it's a "cou…

All you’re saying here is that it’s never possible to characterize a board ousting a ceo as a coup. People do, because it’s a useful way to characterize when this happens in the way it did here vs many other ways that involve far less deception and so on.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#472

Post by DebtDeflation »

threeseed wrote: post #273
belugacat wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking you can develop AGI - if such a thing actually can exist - in an academic vacuum, and not by having your AI rubber meet the road through a plethora of real world business use cases strikes me as extreme hubris. … I guess that makes me a product person?

Or the obvious point that if you're not interested in business use cases then where are you going to get the money for the increasingly exorbitant training costs.

Exactly this. Where do these guys think the money to pay their salaries let alone fund the vast GPU farm they have access to comes from?

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#473

Post by calf »

bmitc wrote: post #335
threeseed wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The board's job is not to do right There is why you do something. And there is how you do something. OpenAI is well within its rights to change strategy even as bold as from a profit-seeking behemoth to a smaller research focused team. But how they went about this is appalling, unprofessional and a blight on corporate governance. They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two cam…

> They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two camps and have let Sam and Greg go angry and seeking retribution. Given the language in the press release, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Sam Altman, and not the board, blindsided everyone? It was apparently his actions and no one else's that led to the consequence handed out by the board. > Which in turn now creates the th…

I wonder if there's a specific term or saying for that, maybe "projection" or "self-victimization" but not quite: when one person biasedly frames that other people were responsible for a bad thing, when it is they yourself that were doing the very thing in the first place. Maybe "hypocrisy"?

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#474

Post by crazygringo »

torstenvl wrote: post #441
crazygringo wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're confusing business with politics. You're right that a literal coup d'état is the forced takeover of a state with the backing of its own military. But in the business and wider world, a coup (without the d'état part) is, by analogy, any takeover of power that is secretly planned and executed as a surprise. (We can similarly talk about a company "declaring war" which means to compete by mobilizing all resour…

Your post is internally inconsistent. Defining a coup as "any takeover of power" is inconsistent with saying that firing Sam Altman is a coup. CEOs do not have and should not have any power vis-à-vis the board. It's right there in the name. Executives do not have any right to their position. They are an officer, i.e., an agent of the stakeholders. The idea that the executive is the holder of the power and it's a "cou…

You're ignoring the rest of the definition I provided. I did not say it was "any takeover of power". Please read the definition I gave in full.

And I am not referring to the CEO status of Altman at all. That's not the coup part.

What I'm referring to is the fact that beyond his firing as CEO, he and the chairman were removed from their board seats, as a surprise planned and executed in secret. That's the coup. This is not a board firing a CEO who was bad at their job; this is two factions at the company where one orchestrates a total takeover of the other. That's a coup.

Again, I'm not saying whether this is good or bad. I'm just saying, this is as clear-cut of a coup as there can be. This has nothing in common with the normal firing of a CEO accomplished out in the open. This is four board members removing the other two in secret. That's a coup if there ever was one.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#475

Post by bmitc »

calf wrote: post #473
bmitc wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two camps and have let Sam and Greg go angry and seeking retribution. Given the language in the press release, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Sam Altman, and not the board, blindsided everyone? It was apparently his actions and no one else's that led to the consequence handed out by the board. > Which in turn now creates the th…

I wonder if there's a specific term or saying for that, maybe "projection" or "self-victimization" but not quite: when one person biasedly frames that other people were responsible for a bad thing, when it is they yourself that were doing the very thing in the first place. Maybe "hypocrisy"?

Probably a little of all of that all bundled up together under the umbrella of cult of personality.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#476

Post by s1artibartfast »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #468
cthalupa wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be some conflict of interest but the resolution to those conflicts is clear: The mission comes first. OpenAI employees might not like it and it might drive them to leave, but they entered into this agreement with a full understanding that the structure has always been in place to prioritize the non-profit's charter.

> The mission comes first. Which might only be possible with future funding? From Microsoft in this case. And in any case if they give out any more shares in the wouldn’t they (with MS) be able to just take over the for-profit corp?

The deal with Microsoft was 11 billion for 49% of the venture. First off, if open AI can't get it done with 11 billion plus whatever Revenue, they probably won't. Second, the way the for-profit is set up, it may not matter how much Microsoft owns, because the nonprofit keeps 100% of the control. Seems like that's the deal that Microsoft signed. They bought a share of profits with no control. Third, my understanding is that the 11 billion from Microsoft is based on milestones. If openai doesn't meet them, they don't get all the money

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#477

Post by gota »

HAL3000 wrote: post #357
threeseed wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The board's job is not to do right There is why you do something. And there is how you do something. OpenAI is well within its rights to change strategy even as bold as from a profit-seeking behemoth to a smaller research focused team. But how they went about this is appalling, unprofessional and a blight on corporate governance. They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two cam…

As someone who has orchestrated two coups in different organizations, where the leadership did not align with the organization's interests and missions, I can assure you that the final stage of such a coup is not something that can be executed after just an hour of preparation or thought. It requires months of planning. The trigger is only pulled when there is sufficient evidence or justification for such action. Bui…

I am extremely interested in hearing about these coups and your experience in them; if you'd like and are able to share

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#478

Post by ls612 »

chaostheory wrote: post #457
jacquesm wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this is spot on. The key to it all is 'if you strike at the king, you best not miss'.

Going off on a big tangent, but Jiang Zemin had made several failed assassination attempts on Xi Jinping, but he was still able to die of old age.

By assassination I assume you mean metaphorical? As in to derail his rise before becoming party leader?

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#479

Post by GCA10 »

bmitc wrote: post #335
threeseed wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The board's job is not to do right There is why you do something. And there is how you do something. OpenAI is well within its rights to change strategy even as bold as from a profit-seeking behemoth to a smaller research focused team. But how they went about this is appalling, unprofessional and a blight on corporate governance. They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two cam…

> They have blind-sided partners (e.g. Satya is furious), split the company into two camps and have let Sam and Greg go angry and seeking retribution. Given the language in the press release, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Sam Altman, and not the board, blindsided everyone? It was apparently his actions and no one else's that led to the consequence handed out by the board. > Which in turn now creates the th…

The only appropriate target for Microsoft's anger would be its own deal negotiators.

OpenAI's dual identity as a nonprofit/for-profit business was very well known. And the concentration of power in the nonprofit side was also very well known. From the media coverage of Microsoft's investments, it sounds as if MSFT prioritized getting lots of business for its Azure cloud service -- and didn't prioritize getting a board seat or even an observer's chair.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#480

Post by __loam »

Michelangelo11 wrote: post #374
danenania wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A difference in this case is how capital intensive AI research is at the level OpenAI is operating. Someone who can keep the capital rolling in (whether through revenue, investors, or partners) and get access to GPUs and proprietary datasets is essential. Carmack could make graphics advances on his own with just a computer and his brain. Ilya needs a lot more for OpenAI to keep advancing. His giant brain isn’t enough…

That's a really, really good point. Maybe OpenAI, at this level of success, can keep the money coming in though.

We don't even know if they're profitable right now, or how much runway they have left.
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